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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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I don't think people would necessarily revolt if they were subjected to the environment of terror that we're expected to believe the Nazis created in their death camps. But anybody with any knowledge of industrial psychology knows that workers toiling in an unpredictable state of terror after watching their friends and family being murdered are not going to be the human cogs in the most efficient factory of death that the world has ever seen. Even though physical punishment was more common back in the day and human factors engineering was pretty much unknown, most managers even then would know that simply holding a gun to someone's head isn't going make them give 110%. Even slave owners and overseers knew that if you whipped your slave too much it's going to cause a decline in productivity.

Because the death camps were able to kill as many people as they did on a daily basis and dispose of the bodies within such a tiny area using primarily manual labor and whatever technology they had laying around, we know the workers weren't starved, beaten, terrorized, and tortured daily before being knocked off after a few weeks on the job.

Exactly on both.

Violence in US prisons is rarely the result of organized events. Occasions of random acts of violence, no matter where, rise and fall according to environmental/social pressures on individuals.

I agree with the highlighted BECAUSE I recognize good sarcasm.
 
I just happened on this one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp#Treblinka_I
Eberl's poor organizational skills soon caused the operation of Treblinka to turn disastrous. At the very beginning, the corpses were buried in mass graves, but within days the burial pits were overflowing with bodies, and corpses were instead piled up in camp II because the workers did not have proper time to bury them. At the same time, the gas chambers continually broke down. Therefore, the SS resorted to shooting incoming Jews in the arrival area of the camp and piling bodies throughout the camp.

How the hell does a gas chamber break down?

I like how you use a description of the horrors of Treblinka to advance your argument it never happened.

You do know that they used carbon monoxide at Treblinka don't you. Any guess as to how they made it?
 
BUT it seems the Germans decided they should gather Jewish seed. Will somebody explain why?





I guess the Germans destroyed that machine too. Bastards.

They weren't actually gathering Jewish seed qua Jewish seed. That particular experiment was part of the top secret Nazi Fleshlight program. They just needed post-puberty male human subjects--Jewish, Black, even French--it didn't matter. Their subject just happened to be Jewish because there were so many Jews that the Nazis hadn't gotten around to killing yet.
 
I kinda feel badly for people who try so hard to skew my words. You lurkers be sure to notice that LemmyCaution's vociferous rant doesn't follow his usual retort format of quoting my comment and attacking it.


Maybe he can share the reference for these two observations.

a) people of "that time" valued their lives very little and so revenge came easily to them, as they cared more about revenge than about staying alive, thus groups of people could not be mistreated without their fighting back


b) it is abnormal for people to succumb to superior power and the use of force or to try to find individual advantages in oppressive systems or to hope to maintain their lives even in dire conditions.


And these two?

a) people of "that time" valued their lives very little and so revenge came easily to them, as they cared more about revenge than about staying alive, thus groups of people could not be mistreated without their fighting back

b) it is abnormal for people to succumb to superior power and the use of force or to try to find individual advantages in oppressive systems or to hope to maintain their lives even in dire conditions.

The following I supposedly hand waived. I must have missed that.


a) evidence of savage conditions, mistreatment of inmates, and mass murder in the camps and

b) the efficacy of Nazi control systems and tactics in rendering inmates in the various camp systems as well as the ghettos powerless and defenseless (through such devices as divide and conquer routines - the system of Kapos and elders, the Judenrate and Order Service, through terror, through force and "muscle," through use of informants, through individual and collective punishment, through dehumanization and maltreatment).

This is planet Earth is it not? Treblinka was a work camp. Camps weren't prisons and people walked unguarded to perform their daily regimen.


I'm sorry but it's still unclear what you're trying to argue.
 
I have read the van Pelt report as well as it commercial spinoff "The Case for Auschwitz." I know that he acknowledges Hoess' importance to our knowledge of Auschwitz and of Auschwitz to our knowledge of the holocaust in general. If I recall correctly, van Pelt spends a great deal of time going over the various permutations of Hoess' statements. I know what van Pelt says about Hoess because I am actually interested.

But you said:

My argument as regards Hoess is that Hoess did not testify under oath to 1.1 million deaths at Auschwitz (gassed or otherwise) at any time and that he was dead before we heard anything close to that number in connection with his name. You corrected me with the information that Hoess testified under oath in his very first affidavit to the "same numbers deported from individual countries." You said that he repeated these numbers to Gilbert at Nuremberg and in a signed statement in November 1947 (after he was dead, btw) as well as in court under oath in March 1947. What was that number or numbers? If it wasn't 1.1 million, how does it "screw" my argument?

Hoess gave a list of major actions from individual countries and estimates from individual countries eg:
Hungary 400,000
Poland 250,000

adding up to 1.13 million Jews deported to Auschwitz.

The enumeration is essentially the same in his March 1946 affidavit (NO-1210) as in a statement to GM Gilbert around the time of his IMT interrogations (May 1946 or so) which Gilbert discussed at the Eichmann trial, and in his November 1946 (sorry, typo) essay 'the Final Solution of the Jewish Question', and thus published in his memoir.

Pelt discusses Gilbert's testimony at the Eichmann trial, and also gives the breakdown included in his memoir. He does not, however, notice that NO-1210 contains the same enumeration for individual actions.

Your argument was originally that no Nazi testified under oath to the gassing of 1.1 million Jews at Auschwitz. You may have half a banana because no Nazi could possibly testify to such a number, as a maximum of 1.1 million Jews were deported to Auschwitz, with not all being gassed, some dying from camp conditions and some transferred.

However, Hoess did state under oath the number deported to Auschwitz as best as he could remember it, based on his experiences as camp commandant and in Amtsgruppe D, which under the circumstances counts as a rather remarkable

Your new condition "that he was dead before we heard anything close to that number in connection with his name" is moving the goalposts and irrelevant to our state of knowledge in the present day, as this is 2012 and not 1946. Hoess's public statement at IMT gave a higher number, 2.5M, despite his backpedalling to Gilbert and then later to Jan Sehn, and the IMT affidavit repeats the 2.5M number without giving the enumeration in full, although it does repeat numbers like 400,000 Hungarian Jews.

But as this is 2012 we have NO-1210, his statements to Gilbert, and his memoir which was entered into evidence at his own trial as a series of signed statements, plus remarks to IMT psychologist Leon Goldensohn which also disavowed the higher number, plus his explanation at his own trial as to why he gave a higher number - the British were badgering him with even higher figures and he retorted by repeating a number he claimed to have heard from Eichmann in 1944 (a consistent point in his whole testimony).

That number, 2.5 million, is actually damn close to the total number deported to the camps as a whole.
 
Exactly on both.

Violence in US prisons is rarely the result of organized events. Occasions of random acts of violence, no matter where, rise and fall according to environmental/social pressures on individuals.

I agree with the highlighted BECAUSE I recognize good sarcasm.
We've been discussing Treblinka. I am not sure where I, for example, or anyone else on this thread argued that the place was the most efficient industrial killing installation ever devised - "not going to be the human cogs in the most efficient factory of death that the world has ever seen." It was good enough to do its job, and its process broke down (see above) at least once. Because work (in this case, killing) was accomplished doesn't mean it was a perfected process nor that the place wasn't barbaric.
 
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I kinda feel badly for people who try so hard to skew my words. You lurkers be sure to notice that LemmyCaution's vociferous rant doesn't follow his usual retort format of quoting my comment and attacking it.
Clayton,

I and a number of other members mentioned that your posts are unintelligible. Perhaps it comes from your emulating those stupid people you claim to see all the time. I don't know. Anyway, in lieu of your trying to explain what you've been arguing - it seems even your pal Dogzilla's been struggling to comprehend it - I decided to interpret it for myself. That meant restating it in my own words. If I am misstating what you argued, instead of posting more impenetrable gibberish, you could, of course, explain why you feel I am mistaken. Then we could have what people call a discussion.

First question:
Maybe he can share the reference for these two observations.

a) people of "that time" valued their lives very little and so revenge came easily to them, as they cared more about revenge than about staying alive, thus groups of people could not be mistreated without their fighting back
There is a specific post I was thinking of when I wrote this. This one: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8259254&postcount=1350
You don't understand that people of that time realized they were expendable. Rage and revenge toward day in day out brutality would be more likely than the extra day, week, month of life you seem to think they would cherish so much.


Second question:
b) it is abnormal for people to succumb to superior power and the use of force or to try to find individual advantages in oppressive systems or to hope to maintain their lives even in dire conditions.
This summary statement comes from reading several of your posts and trying to put together the case you were fumbling after. These are the ones that seem most pertinent.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8268375&postcount=1528
So now there are thousands of prisoners going about their business between musters.

And unlike normal human beings the Jewish prisoners don't fester with hate and rage at the atrocities levied at only Jewish babies, children, women, and men.

And unlike normal people the German camp authorities, staff, and guards, who are aware of non stop atrocities against Jewish people, have no problem/fear of thousands of Jewish people going about their business between musters.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233904&page=33
I said that if they had really been subjected to the terror and savagery the Holocaustics say they were subjected to they would have responded as I said. Plus the Germans would never have been able to trust them to do even the most menial chores for fear of sabotage. The Jewish inmates would have been walking time bombs.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8255825&postcount=1262
I said that if, lets say Jews saw or knew of babies being smashed into walls, bayoneted, or thrown alive into fire pits as business as usual they would have been violent and out of control. In other words no Jewish person could be trusted TO NOT TO be violent at any time.

Violent behavior by authorities begets spontaneous violent retaliation by those being controlled.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8256068&postcount=1276
It's amusing that the Holocaustics refuse to admit that Jewish people would have retaliated with measured and unmeasured violence if they were subjected to the horrors of the Holocaust myth. The guards and all camp personal would been under siege 24/7. The Jewish people would have reacted like normal persons in the midst of rampant savagery and terror.

And meaningful labor? Like that would happen in the midst of rampant savagery and terror.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8256119&postcount=1281
the inmates did the crap jobs like working in the kitchen. That means the Jewish inmates had to be trusted. You don't go around brutalizing Jewish inmates and smashing Jewish babies into walls and then trust Jewish people near your food.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8259334&postcount=1360
The willingness of workers to fight for reasons that pale in comparison to the savagery Team Holocaust alleges was levied against Jewish people in the camps.


The same again:
And these two?
They seem to be the same as the first two statements you quoted from my post.

Your handwaving and tactic of incredulity:
The following I supposedly hand waived. I must have missed that.

a) evidence of savage conditions, mistreatment of inmates, and mass murder in the camps and

b) the efficacy of Nazi control systems and tactics in rendering inmates in the various camp systems as well as the ghettos powerless and defenseless (through such devices as divide and conquer routines - the system of Kapos and elders, the Judenrate and Order Service, through terror, through force and "muscle," through use of informants, through individual and collective punishment, through dehumanization and maltreatment).
Yes, you did handwave and dodge, by mischaracterizing daily life for the inmates, exactly as swright777 and others have said. And here again you and Dogzilla do exactly what I said, ignore the evidence for how the camps were administered and run so you can convince yourselves that inmates were not brutalized: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8278104&postcount=1641. You also ignore the routine of punishment, surprise violence, and arbitrary brutality directed against inmates - and the role of such elements in causing fear and compliance. Again, testimonies and memoirs describe these elements of the Treblinka system - and all you've done thus far is ignore such sources in favor of spinning up your own personal, favored fantasy about daily life in the camp.

This is planet Earth is it not? Treblinka was a work camp. Camps weren't prisons and people walked unguarded to perform their daily regimen.
Treblinka I was a work camp, with far worse conditions than in prisons. Treblinka II was not a work camp - and to make your assertion that "people walked unguarded" and roved and navigated, you continue to ignore mountains of evidence against your ignorant claims, without offering any rebuttal on specific points (such as how prisoners there were guarded, threatened, punished, etc.) other than incredulity and blether.

I see that you haven't yet explained to us exactly to what happened to the Jews of Vilna, Warsaw, Lodz, Riga, and Kiev during WW2: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8269822&postcount=1571 and, to borrow some questions asked in a different context,
where they went, who greeted them on arrival and in what way, etc.
 
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I like how you use a description of the horrors of Treblinka to advance your argument it never happened.
Unsurprisingly, a number of contemporary, independent witness accounts and postwar memoirs describe the conditions in the camp under Eberl, the temporary shutdown of the camp and its reorganization under new administration, and what work inmates did at this time. Also, unsurprisingly, Clayton goes not for these accounts but for Wikipedia's gloss.
 
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I don't think people would necessarily revolt if they were subjected to the environment of terror that we're expected to believe the nazis created in their death camps. But anybody with any knowledge of industrial psychology knows that workers toiling in an unpredictable state of terror after watching their friends and family being murdered are not going to be the human cogs in the most efficient factory of death that the world has ever seen. Even though physical punishment was more common back in the day and human factors engineering was pretty much unknown, most managers even then would know that simply holding a gun to someone's head isn't going make them give 110%. Even slave owners and overseers knew that if you whipped your slave too much it's going to cause a decline in productivity.

Because the death camps were able to kill as many people as they did on a daily basis and dispose of the bodies within such a tiny area using primarily manual labor and whatever technology they had laying around, we know the workers weren't starved, beaten, terrorized, and tortured daily before being knocked off after a few weeks on the job.

Exactly wrong on both.

Violence in us prisons is rarely the result of organized events. Occasions of random acts of violence, no matter where, rise and fall according to environmental/social pressures on individuals.

I agree with the highlighted because i recognize good sarcasm.

ftfy
 
I'm sorry if I have mischaracterized what you have been saying. I was under the impression you believe the Jews wouldn't stand for the treatment they received. I interpreted that as expecting them to revolt, rebel, etc. Believe me, I know how these people misinterpret what I say. I think it's usually malicious but I'm willing to entertain the possibility that they really are that stupid. I'm certainly not going to rely on their interpretation of what you or anybody else said to inform me as to what was actually said,

Projecting much?
 
Agreed,

[Snip excellent, accurate and well articulated summary of CMs position as observed in his many posts]
I kinda feel badly for people who try so hard to skew my words. You lurkers be sure to notice that LemmyCaution's vociferous rant doesn't follow his usual retort format of quoting my comment and attacking it.


Maybe he can share the reference for these two observations.

a) people of "that time" valued their lives very little and so revenge came easily to them, as they cared more about revenge than about staying alive, thus groups of people could not be mistreated without their fighting back


b) it is abnormal for people to succumb to superior power and the use of force or to try to find individual advantages in oppressive systems or to hope to maintain their lives even in dire conditions.


And these two?

a) people of "that time" valued their lives very little and so revenge came easily to them, as they cared more about revenge than about staying alive, thus groups of people could not be mistreated without their fighting back

b) it is abnormal for people to succumb to superior power and the use of force or to try to find individual advantages in oppressive systems or to hope to maintain their lives even in dire conditions.

The following I supposedly hand waived. I must have missed that.


a) evidence of savage conditions, mistreatment of inmates, and mass murder in the camps and

b) the efficacy of Nazi control systems and tactics in rendering inmates in the various camp systems as well as the ghettos powerless and defenseless (through such devices as divide and conquer routines - the system of Kapos and elders, the Judenrate and Order Service, through terror, through force and "muscle," through use of informants, through individual and collective punishment, through dehumanization and maltreatment).

This is planet Earth is it not? Treblinka was a work camp. Camps weren't prisons and people walked unguarded to perform their daily regimen.

He didn't quote you. He posted an excellent, accurate and well articulated summary of your position as observed in your many posts.

ETA: Oops! I didn't see LemmyCautions follow up post.
 
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I presume you're trying to confuse the picture by making an illiterate conflation of prison trusties and "people who are trusted" as in 'trustee'.

I use the word "trustee" because that's what they call the people I'm talking about in the prison system.

It is very common in many prisons to have a trusty system, which means, prisoners who are essentially informers and enforcers for the guards, often organised on an unofficial basis. Nazi Germany also used a trusty system, calling the trusties kapos.

In the US, the trustee system isn't organized on an unofficial basis nor is it essentially informers and enforcers for the guards. It's prisoners who do various jobs within the prison such as work the laundry, meal prep, etc. A prison trustee is analogous to the SK.

Prisoner functionaries in the KZ system were functionally analogous to non-commissioned officers in most armies, mediating between the 'officers' (i.e. the SS Block Leaders and other SS men who had day-to-day dealings with the prisoners) and the ordinary inmates. In exchange for helping control the prisoners, the kapos and prisoner functionaries received privileges, creating a simple hierarchical trade-off, and enabling the imposition of a greater degree of control than would have been possible when only relying on guards.

In parallel to the public kapo system, the camp Gestapo tended to employ informers and stool pigeons, something which we also find in the NKVD-run GULag.

A kapo was also made responsible for the prisoners under threat of punishment; designating a kapo to lead a work detachment meant that it was in the self-interest of the kapo to control the workers otherwise he would be killed. Thus, while they were privileged, they were also at risk because of their exposed positions as the publicly acknowledged leaders.



This is babbling nonsense. swright777 was in fact suggesting that there is a trust deficit in prisons today, just as there was a trust deficit in Nazi concentration camps.

Prisons and Nazi concentration camps are both total institutions. The sociology and social psychology involved are widely recognised as being similar. That's why one can read Erving Goffman's Asylums and recognise similar insights one reads in Bruno Bettelheim's The Informed Heart or in Elie Cohen's Human Behaviour in the Concentration Camps.

Boarding schools could also be considered "total institutions." Not really relevant however. Whatever the similarity or differences between trustees and SK, to say that a "trust deficit" exists in both prisons and Nazi concentration camps and because prisons today work, the concentration camps must have worked as well is crazy. The level of alleged violence between the two institutions makes comparisons between the two a false analogy.
 
Right down to the last unthreatening 103 year old, it would seem.

Anyway, it's nice to identify one of your sockpuppets because of this anecdote. I'm curious where else you have trolled under anonymous usernames - care to fess up for the record?

I go by NickTerrey over at Stormfront, Aryan Nations, NAMBLA, and the Flat Earth Society. NickTerry was already taken at all four.
 
I like how you use a description of the horrors of Treblinka to advance your argument it never happened.

You do know that they used carbon monoxide at Treblinka don't you. Any guess as to how they made it?

They gathered CO2 in forest and took out one of the Os. I think an old submarine or tank engine they had laying around was used to power the O-remover.
 
I use the word "trustee" because that's what they call the people I'm talking about in the prison system.

In English, those people are called trusties plural, trusty singular. A trustee is someone on a charity board.

In the US, the trustee system isn't organized on an unofficial basis nor is it essentially informers and enforcers for the guards. It's prisoners who do various jobs within the prison such as work the laundry, meal prep, etc. A prison trustee is analogous to the SK.

Nope.

Boarding schools could also be considered "total institutions." Not really relevant however.

and mental asylums, barracks... there is quite a wide set of institutions to use for comparison. And quite a lot of literature drawing parallels and noting the differences. One doesn't have to be a disciple of Saint Michel to realise that carceral institutions have succeeded quite well in their task of disciplining and punishing segregated groups in the modern era.

Whatever the similarity or differences between trustees and SK, to say that a "trust deficit" exists in both prisons and Nazi concentration camps and because prisons today work, the concentration camps must have worked as well is crazy.

That wasn't anybody's argument. swright777 started us off down the 'trust' route by stating that:

Even in prisons today where none of these atrocities are happening you can't trust the inmates. And it doesn't stop the daily routine.

Trust doesn't make sense in a situation where you have guards and inmates.

If you could trust the inmates then you wouldn't need guards.

making it pretty explicit that even in a much less violent situation such as a contemporary Western prison, guards do not trust the inmates. Certainly not en masse; and certainly not as an undifferentiated individual. The average inmate is not to be trusted, that is the reasoning behind prison discipline, and it was also the reasoning behind KZ discipline.

The whole point of using trusties and informers is to divide and rule a potentially dangerous group of individuals who might unite to act in concert against the guards. A mixture of blandishments and threats generally works fine; suborn some of the potential ringleaders and make them do your dirty work for you; or make potential ringleaders responsible for any violations of order and discipline. Or both.

The level of alleged violence between the two institutions makes comparisons between the two a false analogy.

No it doesn't. One can equally make analogies with uniformed militaries. Indeed I already made just such an analogy when discussing kapos. Prisoner functionaries occupied NCO-type roles, belonging firmly to an 'enlisted' class versus an 'officer' class.

In a number of KZs, the kapos were recruited from another nationality, thus German 'greens' were imported from Sachsenhausen to lord it over the largely Polish inmates of Auschwitz in the early phase of the camp; and the SS also sent German 'greens' from Sachsenhausen to Riga when the ghetto became a KZ in 1943. We then find Polish kapos in charge of the crematoria Sonderkommandos at Birkenau from 1943-44.

At Treblinka, we have a small 'officer' class of German SS men with NCO rank, numbering 30, alongside a whole company of 125 Trawnikis, further hierarchised into NCOs and ordinary guards, forming a large guard force to watch over 700 plus prisoner workers. That was a much higher guard to inmate ratio than was found in ordinary KZs. It was in fact about 1:5, which is extremely high. Why? Because the circumstances required it.

Since the SS and Trawnikis were of different nationalities and cultural background, the Trawnikis fulfilled part of the role which would have been assigned to kapos in, say, Auschwitz.

However, we further find Jewish kapos selected from the prisoner labour force, who were made individually responsible for collective behaviour, i.e. coerced into coercing others. Then there were Jewish informers among the prisoner workforce, a number of whom were identified and avoided by the other inmates, as happens with stoolpigeons elsewhere. Some of the kapos appointed from the labour force became quite brutal and savage, most remained 'decent' and play-acted shouting and beating the workers.

Those workers were in turn divided into squads by function, with the entire labour force fundamentally split between two separate sections of the camp, with only a very small number of skilled workers able to move between the two. At Sobibor, nobody was allowed to move between the sections.

The work squads were confined to barracks if not needed, eg clothes-sorters were confined while transports arrived, leaving only a few prisoners to witness the arrival of transports. The work squads were overseen by Trawnikis and SS, who made first resort to whips, just like American slave overseers in the 19th century. Guns were available on pistol belts or in the hands of guards on the perimeter and could be used in the event of resistance, or at the end of the day when an exhausted worker was summarily executed.

Work squads were summoned for roll calls and threatened with decimation if anyone was found to be missing, imposing collective responsibility on the entire group. In addition, prisoners were subjected to 'sport', the traditional KZ humiliations which served to break down individual will, and ordered to sing songs. These latter aspects of the camp are going to remind pretty much everyone of Full Metal Jacket and other films about basic training, and indeed, they had the same functions - de-individuation, disciplining, and coercing inmates into what the Germans liked to call Kadavergehorsam (of their own military recruits).

It is quite apparent from reading a representative cross-section of Treblinka testimonies that the inmates learned which SS men to avoid, and thus their basic day-to-day survival strategy was to go out of their way not to attract attention of the sadists among the guards. If they did attract attention, then they had to obey unflinchingly, otherwise they knew they would be killed.

By 1943, moreover, the SS had more time on their hands since there were fewer transports coming in, and correspondingly more time to torment the inmates. The inmates who were left had survived the winter, survived several outbreaks of typhus, and had become 'familiar' to the guards, to the point where fewer were being killed on a whim. Some SS men even had what can be considered decent human relations with the prisoners. The collective chicaneries of forced sports matches and concert performances for the benefit of the SS continued the same practice of disciplining the inmates as we see in 'sport' and in forcing the workers to sing songs. With too much time on their hands, the SS became quite creative. That was when the zoo appeared. At this stage, one is fully entitled to regard Treblinka circa the spring and early summer of 1943 as something like Goffman on acid, or a bad trip described by RD Laing about the worst mental asylum ever.

The chicaneries, however, did not succeed in distracting the workers from their plans to escape and revolt, which they duly did in August 1943.

Long experience organising men to charge into musket, rifle and machine gun fire against their better instincts, as well as the evidence of the Milgram and Stanford prison experiments, suggest that it is not terribly difficult to discipline bodies of men of whatever nationality or background you care to name, to perform extremely unpleasant tasks.

Discipline does break down, yes, but that's precisely what happened at Treblinka. There were no mutinies of any kind in most big Nazi KZs, despite the obviously life-threatening conditions which prevailed in them. There were multiple mutinies at Auschwitz-Birkenau, and mutinies at Treblinka and Sobibor, as well as individual acts of resistance and escape (despite the threat of collective punishment, which was carried out on several occasions).

So the incredulity about why didn't they resist is answered: they did. Why didn't they resist sooner? That is where one has to study the methods used to coerce the workforce and keep them passive, but also pay attention to the necessary preconditions for an organised revolt, which were not easily brought about in those camps.
 
This thread needs a stimulus, since the previous lines of discussion are rapidly running themselves into the ground.

So I hereby invite the rev-inclined posters to enumerate their top 10 arguments against the historical record of the Holocaust. The small print is as follows:

1. arguments should be against the actual historical record, not a strawman or fantasy version of it.

2. arguments should not lie or assert something which can be easily shown to be false. Such assertions will be rejected out of hand. For example, asserting that there is flatly 'no evidence' of type x when such evidence in fact exists.

3. arguments must be made in statement form and not in question form.

4. the 10 arguments should be presented together in a single post.

5. no spam; use your own words.

It is of course encouraged that the rev-inclined posters decide what their best arguments are, since one of the problems with these threads is that we keep on being presented with really, really bad tangents and lame arguments, which have hitherto resulted in such rev victories as polls with results like 194-3 against the denier cause (and that's after adjusting for willful trolling by one of your number).

I will confess to wondering whether our revs are now so addled and punch-drunk they can even remember 10 arguments much less express them coherently.
 
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The conditions seem rather unfair to the other side, taking away their stock in trade - no strawmen, no fantasies, no lies, no spam, statements rather than questions.

Just the same, perhaps Clayton Moore will treat us to an attempt at an intelligible explanation of what he has been trying to argue with regard to the camps run by the Third Reich.
 
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