Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

---------> 7:11 p.m. EST, March 8, 2012 <-----

"Detectives should complete their investigation next week at the latest" -- Sanford Police Chief Lee

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...g-police-headquarters-investigation-next-week

Further confirmed by the link upthread:

That is why I directed the expeditious review of the investigation which was delivered by the Sanford Police Department one week ago today...

Considering how ignorant I am, maybe some of the criminal investigation experts in this thread can clue me in. Would this complete investigation by the Sanford PD include things like "ballistics, powder burns, forensic data analysis and a coroner's investigation"?

 

[GWCarver]

Actually, it was the opposite phenomenon upon which I was commenting. When defending the Sanford PD, it was a thorough and adequate investigation above reproach. When criticizing Angela Corey, she unfairly swooped in before the Sanford PD had a chance to dot the i's and cross the t's.

It seems that some people are trying to have it both ways. The former is the standard position. Unless any shortcomings come to light. Then just simply claim the latter.

I'm sorry if this point was lost on anyone, but I do find it quite entertaiing that after another poster so recently proclaimed grieving parents to be "fair game" it's my post that elicited such outrage.

Actually, KatieG made a good case against criticizing the parents and I changed my mind about them being fair game, at least for the immediate future.

 

[johnny karate]

Actually, KatieG made a good case against criticizing the parents and I changed my mind about them being fair game, at least for the immediate future.

Fair enough. And I apologize to you for the tone of my posts criticizing you on this issue.

 

[Dancing David]

---------> 7:11 p.m. EST, March 8, 2012 <-----

"Detectives should complete their investigation next week at the latest" -- Sanford Police Chief Lee

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...g-police-headquarters-investigation-next-week

I know it is sad to call you out on this but maybe you should learn to read the posts, gasp and shock!

The post I responded to said "the investigation", your posts says "their investigation".

OMFSM!

I mean really you don't move and reframe goals post do you?

Seriously RT there is a point where you make you otherwise cogent posts senseless rhetorical spinning.

 

[Dancing David]

I need to know something. Are you in charge of this forum and the final arbiter of all that is relevant?

I made my statement, if you wish to derail the thread go ahead. And then you can write a post in Forum Management questioning why the thread got split.

 

[Dancing David]

Further confirmed by the link upthread:



Considering how ignorant I am, maybe some of the criminal investigation experts in this thread can clue me in. Would this complete investigation by the Sanford PD include things like "ballistics, powder burns, forensic data analysis and a coroner's investigation"?

No, why would it? Why would the SPD have a magic time machine to move forward months in advance to get data analysis at the time they turned over their investigation?

Considering how you add words to the sentence I responded to, maybe you can answer your own question?

How vague is "the investigation"? In regards to Corey's charge "the investigation" is not limited to the SPD, nor the Florida state police, it would include all ongoing examinations of forensic evidence that Corey was aware of, would it not?

This is your post

The SA was still investigating, with the help of SPD and other agencies, to determine what to charge GZ with, if anything.

It prob took a week or so for SPD to finish up the initial work and put a report together for the SA. Then another week or so for the SA to work on it.

You're right at March 20 or so then.

So by the time Angela Corey took over the case, was the investigation complete or not?

The last noun before 'investigation' was 'case' preceded by 'Angela Cory', so that would link 'investigation' to Angela Cory and no, the SPD investigation is not the only investigation that would be being done.

You will note the use of the word 'initial' , 'and other agencies' by LTC8K6, which would imply the incompleteness of the investigation.

 

[Cylinder]

When defending the Sanford PD, it was a thorough and adequate investigation above reproach.

So remind me - what were the defeciencies in the SPD investigation?

 

[GWCarver]

I made my statement, if you wish to derail the thread go ahead. And then you can write a post in Forum Management questioning why the thread got split.

I really don't know anything about derailing and splitting threads. Here is your rationale for why my question about Maresca was off-topic:

"Might as well ask the same question about Emmett Till or the Rosenbergs."


Explain to me why I can't use Maresca to make a point, but you can invoke Emmett Till and the Rosenbergs.

If and when you answer my question, and assuming the thread isn't derailed, I would then like to demonstrate why I think your reasoning with regard to Maresca not being relevant to this case is flawed.

 

[johnny karate]

I know it is sad to call you out on this but maybe you should learn to read the posts, gasp and shock!

The post I responded to said "the investigation", your posts says "their investigation".

OMFSM!

I mean really you don't move and reframe goals post do you?

Seriously RT there is a point where you make you otherwise cogent posts senseless rhetorical spinning.

Nonsense. I was referring to the Sanford PD investigation from the beginning:

The SPD investigation was still going on.

On one hand, the Sanford PD did a thorough and adequate investigation.

On the other hand, the investigation was still ongoing.

So how can an investigation be thorough and adequate, but also incomplete?

You quoted a post of mine from the middle of that exchange that didn't happen to include the qualifier already established in the previous posts.

No one has moved the goal posts. You simply failed to see them in the first place.

 

[johnny karate]

No, why would it? Why would the SPD have a magic time machine to move forward months in advance to get data analysis at the time they turned over their investigation?

How were the Sanford PD able to complete their investigation without ballistics or forensic data?

Considering how you add words to the sentence I responded to, maybe you can answer your own question?

What words do you imagine I added?

How vague is "the investigation"? In regards to Corey's charge "the investigation" is not limited to the SPD, nor the Florida state police, it would include all ongoing examinations of forensic evidence that Corey was aware of, would it not?

This is your post

The last noun before 'investigation' was 'case' preceded by 'Angela Cory', so that would link 'investigation' to Angela Cory and no, the SPD investigation is not the only investigation that would be being done.

You will note the use of the word 'initial' , 'and other agencies' by LTC8K6, which would imply the incompleteness of the investigation.

As I said in my previous post, you should take note of the posts from earlier in the exchange. They specifically make reference to the Sanford PD investigation.

 

[johnny karate]

So remind me - what were the defeciencies in the SPD investigation?

I'm not aware of any specific deficiencies. Nor do I recall claiming I was. I was merely pointing out the logical inconsistency in claiming that an investigation is both thorough and adequate, and incomplete.

However, you might want to talk to Dancing David. According to him, the Sanford PD didn't bother to await forensics or ballistics before completing their investigation.

 

[Mumbles]

I'm not aware of any specific deficiencies. Nor do I recall claiming I was. I was merely pointing out the logical inconsistency in claiming that an investigation is both thorough and adequate, and incomplete.

However, you might want to talk to Dancing David. According to him, the Sanford PD didn't bother to await forensics or ballistics before completing their investigation.

Well, we know for a fact that they didn't listen to the police tapes very closely, since they were unaware of Zimmerman's muttering curse words or of the fact that he identified Martin as a black male. We also know that they did not check Martin's phone records, since they were unaware of the fact that Martin was on the phone as this all went down. They also apparently had no copy of Zimmerman's medical record, which, to be fair to him, they should have obtained. And we have three people who have claimed that the police publicly lied about what they said. And then there's the fact that they allowed Zimmerman to claim "stand your ground", despite the fact that his own police recording showed him running after Martin, who fled after noticing him.

And there are also apparent inconsistencies with Zimmerman's testimony - his claim that Martin circled his car, his apparent story of where he "looked for a street sign" at a place where nobody would expect a street sign to be, and the fact that he claims that Martin approached him from the south and hit him, yet he somehow landed south of Martin. And again, I stress that these are only true *if* the portrayals of Zimmerman's statements are accurate.

 

[Cylinder]

Well, we know for a fact that they didn't listen to the police tapes very closely, since they were unaware of Zimmerman's muttering curse words or of the fact that he identified Martin as a black male.

Cite?

We also know that they did not check Martin's phone records, since they were unaware of the fact that Martin was on the phone as this all went down.

Cite?

They also apparently had no copy of Zimmerman's medical record, which, to be fair to him, they should have obtained.

A fair point, though the initial investigators were there to see - and presumably document - Zimmerman's injuries, so that would probably be more of secondary concern.

And we have three people who have claimed that the police publicly lied about what they said.

Mr. Martin, Mary Cutcher and who? We know Martin was incorrect about some of his claims regarding SPD. Is this Mr. Martin's voice ID? The Cutcher discrepancy will be easy to sort, since both are claiming material differences.

And then there's the fact that they allowed Zimmerman to claim "stand your ground", despite the fact that his own police recording showed him running after Martin, who fled after noticing him.

The police don't allow or disallow suspects to claim anything. If they're good cops, they encourage suspects to make claims.

And there are also apparent inconsistencies with Zimmerman's testimony - his claim that Martin circled his car, his apparent story of where he "looked for a street sign" at a place where nobody would expect a street sign to be, and the fact that he claims that Martin approached him from the south and hit him, yet he somehow landed south of Martin. And again, I stress that these are only true *if* the portrayals of Zimmerman's statements are accurate.

The police didn't script Zimmerman's statements, right? How is that a defeciency?

 

[Mumbles]

Cite?

Cite?

Again, I will not fish for commonly known information about the case to link to here. Feel free to search the thread, or use google.

A fair point, though the initial investigators were there to see - and presumably document - Zimmerman's injuries, so that would probably be more of secondary concern.

Even so, they should have had this information.

Mr. Martin, Mary Cutcher and who? We know Martin was incorrect about some of his claims regarding SPD. Is this Mr. Martin's voice ID? The Cutcher discrepancy will be easy to sort, since both are claiming material differences.

The 13 year old witness woUld be the third. And yes, I am discussing Mr. Martina's ID of the screams on the 911 call.

The police don't allow or disallow suspects to claim anything. If they're good cops, they encourage suspects to make claims.

The point was that the police claimed that they could not arrest Zimmerman due to "stand your ground", even though they had clear evidence that Zimmerman pursued Martin.

The police didn't script Zimmerman's statements, right? How is that a defeciency?

I'm reluctant to say any of this, because we do not actually have Zimmerman's statement. But if it's true that Zimmerman was looking for a street sign, he would not stand on the east end of the pedestrian path (there wouldn't be a street sign there at all), he would head towards the south end of Twin Trees, where Martin was headed. And from there, the only reason why they would both end up on the north side of the pedestrian path, would be if Martin spotted Zimmerman and ran back north, and Zimmerman pursued him.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Again, I will not fish for commonly known information about the case to link to here. Feel free to search the thread, or use google.

Making stuff up as usual and then refusing to back it up because you can't. You should focus your talents on writing a novel.

 

[Cylinder]

Again, I will not fish for commonly known information about the case to link to here. Feel free to search the thread, or use google.

It is kind of customary to attribute claims when asked. I'm a pretty common fellow and I'm not aware of this information. Can you cite it for me?

 

[Dancing David]

How were the Sanford PD able to complete their investigation without ballistics or forensic data?

Because they are not the sole source of investigation?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Because they are not the sole source of investigation?

This is evidently a foreign concept to him. Maybe if you explain to him that a drywaller can finish their work in a house without the drywall being painted, or the house finished, he'll be able to grasp this complex concept. Maybe add in that the drywaller can still come back out to do additional work as needed if the house requires it and "update" their work, to help complete the house, even though his initial work was completed.

Then explain how even after the house construction project is done, even then it could still be updated again in the future and need more drywall work. I recommend not using any big words.

 

[Cylinder]

Gawd....looking for the source of this claim is like cleaning a 10-year-olds room - you have no idea what crap you'll find.

Attorneys wondered why Zimmerman was not tested for drugs ...

I mean, are they really an attorney if they couldn't pass the bar exam?

 

[johnny karate]

Because they are not the sole source of investigation?

I see. Could you please explain what department in a criminal investigation is responsible for the forensics and ballistics if not the police? And could you further explain why the police don't find this information important to have before completing their investigation?