Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[GWCarver]

That's a good possibility that deserves thought.

When I'm lost, I walk up to the first person I see if I am walking, or first gas station or convenience store if I'm driving, and ask them for help. Isn't that what everyone does?

 

[LTC8K6]

When I'm lost, I walk up to the first person I see if I am walking, or first gas station or convenience store if I'm driving, and ask them for help. Isn't that what everyone does?

Men are never lost, and therefore have no need to ask such questions of strangers.

 

[bookworm]

Here's a poll:

When hiding from a scary stalker who is close by, whether in bushes or anywhere else:

How many people would be talking?

How many people would be keeping quiet so he doesn't hear you and find you?

 

[bookworm]

Men are never lost, and therefore have no need to ask such questions of strangers.

I can second that. I know a man like that.

 

[Cylinder]

You can't use lack of visible injuries to judge the severity of head injuries.

That's kind of the basic problem with the strategy of minimizing Zimmerman's head wounds.

First, it's no some kind of obscure this combination of drugs on a patient with this obscure syndrome may may contributed to death tort. Head wounds equals fear of death will resonate with jurors.

The state tries to get expert medical testimony to minimize the wounds can easily be rubutted with one simple question. How many blows to the head does it take to cause death? One? Two? Three? then you can do a s the affects of repeated head trauma cumulitive? Etc... Those are questions easily grasped by a juror.

LEOs will have a similar problem. We all know full well that if you start banging a cop's head into the pavement, you're gonna get yourself shot, right? Anyone have any other expectation? What will you get charged with if you happen to survive? Agravated assault on LEO - and the weapon's going to be the cement. I expect his theme to be presented when the first LEO uses the term unarmed.

Put the picture in the LEO's hands, ask him to look at it. Then ask if you interviewed a witness with those wounds who claimed they were in fear of their life, would you suspect they were lying? That one has some risk, but if the LEO answers honestly...

 

[Rare Truth]

...
Did you know that the overwhelming majority of people don't die from minor bumps on the head with no visible injuries?

Especially when they get cleared by Emergency Medical professionals in a matter of minutes before they are due to head into police interrogation and possible night in a jail cell.

 

[Rare Truth]

Unless you think that iPhone picture of GZ's head is fake, I don't see where that line is going. He doesn't need to have severe injuries, or even bad injuries.

What indication do you have that GZ is lying?

If you could name one thing that makes you think GZ is lying about the events of that evening, what would it be?

I'd say a murder 2 charge by a prosecutor who has a 90% conviction rate, and investigators with about 70 years of detective work experience between them who say the evidence does not match the story ranks right up there.

 

[Cylinder]

Has anyone considered that TM may have been lost?

That's something I considered as well when I learned that Martin was not only a visitor, but fairly new to the complex. It would have been very easy for Martin to have become disoriented, made a wrong turn, and ended up walking back toward the altercation.

It's hard to judge, but one thing that kind of points away is the presumably straight shot to the way to the house. It seems at that point he would be able see home and have good bearings.

The other question is the toxicology report. I know have heard that a solid buzz can play little spatial tricks on a person like that.

 

[bookworm]

That's kind of the basic problem with the strategy of minimizing Zimmerman's head wounds.

First, it's no some kind of obscure this combination of drugs on a patient with this obscure syndrome may may contributed to death tort. Head wounds equals fear of death will resonate with jurors.

The state tries to get expert medical testimony to minimize the wounds can easily be rubutted with one simple question. How many blows to the head does it take to cause death? One? Two? Three? then you can do a s the affects of repeated head trauma cumulitive? Etc... Those are questions easily grasped by a juror.

LEOs will have a similar problem. We all know full well that if you start banging a cop's head into the pavement, you're gonna get yourself shot, right? Anyone have any other expectation? What will you get charged with if you happen to survive? Agravated assault on LEO - and the weapon's going to be the cement. I expect his theme to be presented when the first LEO uses the term unarmed.

Put the picture in the LEO's hands, ask him to look at it. Then ask if you interviewed a witness with those wounds who claimed they were in fear of their life, would you suspect they were lying? That one has some risk, but if the LEO answers honestly...

I like to ask: If you're on the ground and your head is being hit off the ground, how many times are you going to let it happen before you become afraid? After one hit, are you saying to yourself "Well, that one wasn't too bad, I can handle a couple more"?

 

[bookworm]

Especially when they get cleared by Emergency Medical professionals in a matter of minutes before they are due to head into police interrogation and possible night in a jail cell.

Hindsight is everything. How many times would someone need to hit your head before you become afraid of dying from it?

 

[bookworm]

I'd say a murder 2 charge by a prosecutor who has a 90% conviction rate, and investigators with about 70 years of detective work experience between them who say the evidence does not match the story ranks right up there.

Unfortunately though, that prosecutor was working against the threat of mob violence.

 

[bookworm]

Any takers on the poll?

It argues against Trayvon spending the lost minutes hiding from the scary stalker if he was actively talking on the telephone with DeeDee directly before the confrontation. Which he was.

 

[Unabogie]

Please describe the features of a "tactical" flashlight, and what makes it different from a non-tactical flashlight, and why it's relevant to this case.

Google is your friend?

http://www.lapolicegear.com/tactical-flashlights.html

I think that means that Zimmerman purchased a flashlight designed for being "deployed to a sandy part of the world or searching a dark warehouse during an alarm call"

 

[LTC8K6]

I'd say a murder 2 charge by a prosecutor who has a 90% conviction rate, and investigators with about 70 years of detective work experience between them who say the evidence does not match the story ranks right up there.

Argument from authority?

Mike Nifong had a strong case too, as have many other prosecutors who ended up looking bad.

That's no reason to believe GZ is lying.

 

[Rare Truth]

Hindsight is everything. How many times would someone need to hit your head before you become afraid of dying from it?

The dude used to be a bouncer, went by the nickname tugboat, (as his family says "because he was so big"), I'm thinking had pretty good experience in dealing with scuffles and brawls, as he had about 45 - 5-0 pounds on the teenager (who has no history of getting in fights) -- AND he was locked and loaded, with injuries that didn't even require a bandage, I'm gonna say...a bit more than the picture that is revealed by the evidence.

But hey, since so little of the forensics, crime scene reports and witness statements have been seen, I guess we'll know at some point with more clarity.

 

[Rare Truth]

Argument from authority?

Mike Nifong had a strong case too, as have many other prosecutors who ended up looking bad.

That's no reason to believe GZ is lying.

I saw a question, I answered it.

If you don't like the answer, tough toodles.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So... someone claims he was in mortal danger and therefore had to kill another person in self-defense... and you consider that to be a mundane claim?

As opposed to extraordinary ? Yes. It's not like GZ claimed he thought TM was bigfoot

Most of what you say is probably true. However, the standards of the courtroom don't apply here, so I'm not obligated to adhere to them. I can rely of basic skeptical thought.

Now, you're free to consider that my failing, but I think it would be more appropriate to consider it the failing of a legal system that would allow one person to kill another and force the state to disprove he acted in self-defense in order to find him guilty of crime.

I considered it worth pointing out that you are approaching this entire topic in manner that many other are not, and it doesn't lend itself to actually discussing many of the topics that keep coming up. I also think it has limited utility to figure out how the prosecution or defense are going to present their cases. But I am not stating or implying it is a failing.

 

[LTC8K6]

I saw a question, I answered it.

If you don't like the answer, tough toodles.

The question was not asked of you, and you really didn't answer it properly anyway.

I wanted a personal opinion, not a generic response that the prosecutor is right.

I do find it surprising that a skeptic would accept the State's version of events as enough reason to assume a defendant is lying.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Why move the goalposts? You asked why you wouldn't lead a stalker to your home, and clearly, most people understand why.

Now GZ is a stalker ?
There is a legal definition, you know. And he doesn't come close to fitting it.

I wasn't moving the goalposts, I was finishing the reccomendation ... don't go home, do go to the police station.

I think not going to a well lit area, and not calling the police are clear indications TM didn't think he was being 'stalked' by a potential home invader. <my opinion> He didn't go home because he wasn't scared. </my opinion>

You don't lead them to your home because they may hurt you or your property. You try and lose them first. It's common sense, and most everyone seems to agree on this but you.

I don't think most everyone agrees on this. If you don't actually take steps to make yourself safe, then I conclude your safety is not the issue.

 

[LTC8K6]

The dude used to be a bouncer, went by the nickname tugboat, (as his family says "because he was so big"), I'm thinking had pretty good experience in dealing with scuffles and brawls, as he had about 45 - 5-0 pounds on the teenager (who has no history of getting in fights) -- AND he was locked and loaded, with injuries that didn't even require a bandage, I'm gonna say...a bit more than the picture that is revealed by the evidence.

But hey, since so little of the forensics, crime scene reports and witness statements have been seen, I guess we'll know at some point with more clarity.

I no longer think so.

I now think the medical evidence won't change a thing at this board.

The medical reports will do GZ no good at all here at JREF, unless they report a fractured skull.

And even then we will get, "Yeah his skull was cracked a bit, but he was strolling fine into the police station, so the fracture must have been minor."