Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Cylinder]

Zimmerman followed Martin.

Zimmerman admits to following Martin. The polce have no evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin after the dispatcher stated that it was not needed.

Zimmerman confronted Martin.

The police have no evidence that Zimmermen confronted Martin.

Zimmerman initiated an altercation with Martin.

The police have no evidence that Zimmerman initiated the altercation with Martin.

 

[WildCat]

You mean like "doing" circling the truck, and and coming to the truck to ask Zimmerman why he is following?

What on earh are you babbling about? Why would you think any conversation took place at Zimmerman's vehicle?

 

[WildCat]

But we're discussing injuries received in a specific way under specific circumstances. It's the difference between claiming one was being beaten and claiming one was being beaten to death. Again, no one can corroborate that Martin was repeatedly bashing Zimmerman's head onto the ground.

Since when is "bleeding" an indication of the severity of an injury? Paper cuts can bleed. That fact that Zimmerman was bleeding tells us nothing.

Please cite the relevant laws regardoing self defense where a severe injury is required prior to using lethal force.

We both know you won't be doing so, don't we? And having no facts to argue with you resort to red herrings, baseless speculation, and other such nonsense.

Hopeless.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Corroboration? Can't find other links?

Huh?

They're all over the place. Here's another:
Police chief steps aside over Trayvon Martin case

Your posts are confusing. (not to mention I wasn't even responding to you in that reply)

I understand you weren't responding to me. I've never had the complaint that my posts are confusing, but I'll try to keep that in mind and dumb them down for you in the future.

I specifically quoted only part of your response:

And yes, the Dept. of Justice IS investigating the SPD.
Trayvon Martin Case: Department of Justice to investigate entire Sanford police
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/st...e-2266580.html
Does that change your mind?

I thought it was clear that I was responding to your one link from the palmbeachpost and the DOJ.

Let me be clearer:
No, I do not believe the DOJ is conducting an investigation of the entire SPD.

 

[johnny karate]

Maybe you should use "me" instead of "us". So, here is what I have learned today from this post and Rare Earth's previous post:

1.) Zimmerman not bleeding in the walk through the police station is meaningful.
2.) Zimmerman bleeding at the crime scene is not meaningful.

Actually, the first informs the second.

You see, if I say someone is bleeding, it is not an indication of severity. How much are they bleeding? That cannot be ascertained from such a statement. Therefore, in determining the severity of an injury, the simple observation that a person is bleeding is meaningless.

However, if that same person is seen less than an hour later without a trace of blood or any bandages, it can be reasonably asserted that when they were bleeding earlier, it must have not been very severe.

And in Zimmerman's case, since we have actual photos of his injuries taken from the scene, we know this to be the case.

 

[WildCat]

I don't know what's so funny about that. Zimmerman was found with 2 flashlights, one on his keychain, and another described by the investigator as a tactical flashlight.

It's part of the record.

You can, as they say, look it up.

Please describe the features of a "tactical" flashlight, and what makes it different from a non-tactical flashlight, and why it's relevant to this case.

 

[johnny karate]

Zimmerman admits to following Martin. The polce have no evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin after the dispatcher stated that it was not needed.

The police have no evidence that Zimmermen confronted Martin.

The police have no evidence that Zimmerman initiated the altercation with Martin.

I'm aware of all that. If you'll re-read my post for context, you'll see the point I was making.

 

[bookworm]

The prosecution stated clearly the statements made by Zimmerman is contradicted by the evidence.

Thanks, but I want to see it before I believe it since they didn't take position until after mob violence was threatened.

 

[GWCarver]

What on earh are you babbling about? Why would you think any conversation took place at Zimmerman's vehicle?

Here is a source for the conversation at the truck as told by Tracy Martin:

According to Martin, Serino said three things about the minutes before the shooting:

1. George Zimmerman was following Trayvon Martin.

2. There was a brief conversation at Zimmerman's truck. George was inside the vehicle. Martin asked him why he was following him, and Zimmerman said he wasn't.

3. Zimmerman exited the truck and started walking between the two rows of townhouses. Martin, hiding behind a building, surprised Zimmerman and asked, "What's your problem, homes?" When the watch captain denied he had a problem and reached for his cell, Martin hit him.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012...ack_for_the_sanford_police.html#ixzz1uUNO9zmg

 

[LTC8K6]

But we're discussing injuries received in a specific way under specific circumstances. It's the difference between claiming one was being beaten and claiming one was being beaten to death. Again, no one can corroborate that Martin was repeatedly bashing Zimmerman's head onto the ground.

GZ's head bashing claim stands as along as no one can refute it.

It's certainly possible that somehow the prosecution thinks they can now refute it, when the Sanford PD could not.

I do not believe I have heard even a whiff of any evidence or testimony that would rule out GZ's claim of how he was injured.

That's really what has to be done. Rule out GZ's claim of how he received the injuries.

Saying the injuries are not bad enough is never going to fly in court, imo.

I have heard a claim of inconsistency in GZ's story from the prosecution. That could be anything from a giant hole in the story, to a minor detail.

 

[bookworm]

You understand the Police Chief is no longer at his job, that a new one has been appointed, received a vote of no confidence by the city managers, that the State Attorney has decided to step down and not seek reelection, that the reason the republican governor (who stated in no uncertain terms it was not because of bowing to public pressure) appointed a republican prosecutor to take over...precisely because there *were* problems with the way it was handled?

And yes, the Dept. of Justice IS investigating the SPD.

Trayvon Martin Case: Department of Justice to investigate entire Sanford police


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/s...rtment-of-justice-to-investigate-2266580.html

Does that change your mind?

Thank you for that. I hadn't heard. Yes, it MAY change my mind about SOME things. I'll take a look at it.

 

[WildCat]

Here is a source for the conversation at the truck as told by Tracy Martin:

According to Martin, Serino said three things about the minutes before the shooting:

1. George Zimmerman was following Trayvon Martin.

2. There was a brief conversation at Zimmerman's truck. George was inside the vehicle. Martin asked him why he was following him, and Zimmerman said he wasn't.

3. Zimmerman exited the truck and started walking between the two rows of townhouses. Martin, hiding behind a building, surprised Zimmerman and asked, "What's your problem, homes?" When the watch captain denied he had a problem and reached for his cell, Martin hit him.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012...ack_for_the_sanford_police.html#ixzz1uUNO9zmg

I really, really doubt that scenario will be claimed by the prosecution. I think Tracy Martin misunderstood Serino.

 

[johnny karate]

Please cite the relevant laws regardoing self defense where a severe injury is required prior to using lethal force.

Please quote the post in which I made a claim to the contrary.

We both know you won't be doing so, don't we? And having no facts to argue with you resort to red herrings, baseless speculation, and other such nonsense.

Or perhaps you inserted yourself into an ongoing discussion without fully understanding what arguments were being made, and are now attacking the straw man you've created.

 

[LTC8K6]

Please describe the features of a "tactical" flashlight, and what makes it different from a non-tactical flashlight, and why it's relevant to this case.

It's funny how some of the investigator's words are important, and some aren't.

 

[bookworm]

No one has seen the EMT report of the few minutes Z sat in the back of a squad car to get his scratches wiped away. That's coming.

The rest rely on our eyeballs of old tugboat (what his friends affectionately called him) in his jaunty little bandageless six minute stroll through the police station some 35 minutes after his life or death terrorization.

You ARE aware that there was a picture taken within minutes that shows blood running down his head from 2 wounds? And that people really do die from very minor bumps on the head?

 

[WildCat]

Please quote the post in which I made a claim to the contrary.

You've brought it up multiple times now, why? What relevance do you think it has?

You're just engaging in a red herring because you have no actual argument, correct?

Or perhaps you inserted yourself into an ongoing discussion without fully understanding what arguments were being made, and are now attacking the straw man you've created.

I understand perfectly well what arguments you are making, you've been making the same ones this entire thread.

Please explain why you think the extent of Zimmerman's injuries are relevant (rather than there existence), can you do that?

 

[johnny karate]

GZ's head bashing claim stands as along as no one can refute it.

I sincerely hope this is not the same brand of skeptical thought you apply to other areas of your life.

It's certainly possible that somehow the prosecution thinks they can now refute it, when the Sanford PD could not.

You don't know if the Sanford PD tried to refute it.

I do not believe I have heard even a whiff of any evidence or testimony that would rule out GZ's claim of how he was injured.

How very surprising. I would have thought Corey's office had you on speed-dial.

That's really what has to be done. Rule out GZ's claim of how he received the injuries.

Saying the injuries are not bad enough is never going to fly in court, imo.

I have heard a claim of inconsistency in GZ's story from the prosecution. That could be anything from a giant hole in the story, to a minor detail.

It's a issue of credibility. If Zimmerman can be shown to have embellished or manufactured parts of his accoun, the veracity of the entire narrative is called into question.

 

[bookworm]

Who said anything about a "whole fictitious story"? All Zimmerman would have to do is basically recount what happened while leaving out the parts that reflect poorly on him, and embellishing the parts that reflect poorly on Martin.

Let's not pretend he had to be Keyser Soze weaving some fantastical tale out of thin air.



Well, first of all, I don't have access to all the evidence, do I? Secondly, here of this forum, if someone claims Martin was bashing Zimmerman's head on the ground, it's not up to me to disprove that claim.

Well, yes, but then what he said had to match witness reports and other evidence. He didn't have time to make sure that would happen. He just told it like it was.

 

[Rare Truth]

Please describe the features of a "tactical" flashlight, and what makes it different from a non-tactical flashlight, and why it's relevant to this case.

You'll have to ask the Asst. State Attorney who brought it up while questioning the investigator.

He seemed to think it was important, and then immediately the next question in regards to the flashlight was this:

DE LA RIONDA: Mr. Zimmerman never claimed that he chased - in terms of 'ran after' - Mr. Martin, is that correct?

GILBREATH: No.

DE LA RIONDA: But you still have, is it not true, a witness who describes someone chasing another person from the area where they ended up... in other words, from where, near where Mr. Martin lived to the area where the murder happened?

GILBREATH: Yes.​

You think it may be possible a witness may have seen someone with a flashlight in pursuit?

I do.

 

[johnny karate]

You've brought it up multiple times now, why? What relevance do you think it has?

I have? I look forward to the quote you provide of me claiming that the severity of the injury determines the veracity of a self-defense claim.

I understand perfectly well what arguments you are making, you've been making the same ones this entire thread.

Please explain why you think the extent of Zimmerman's injuries are relevant (rather than there existence), can you do that?

It's an issue of Zimmerman's credibility, and how much what he claims lines up with the facts. If he claims Martin was repeatedly bashing his head onto the ground, and the evidence contradicts that claim, that would make Zimmerman a liar. If Zimmerman is determined to be a liar, his whole story is called into question.