War on Women in the Middle East

[Mycroft]

You can't interview 100,000 women in a country and conclude that they reflect 97% of the country.

But you can.

The science of statistics is well established. You can question methodology of any one survey, but it doesn't make much sense to say you can't extrapolate information about a whole from a smaller sample.

Partly because Western women seem to really like the idea of perpetuating the victimhood of Arabic Women. And this is what my research has shown as well. That no matter how much a Muslim woman says she wears the Hijab because of her identity in religion she is still treated as oppressed. Oddly this doesn't extend to other women who culturally cover their hair like Jewish women. Head covering has been a long tradition in women's religious history and it's not treated the same way in other cultures.

I think many people are confused between Hijab and Burka. I don't think most people are bothered by a headscarf, if it's voluntary, but it's hard to understand how the whole body covering is not oppressive. Also, just because a person submits voluntarily doesn't mean it's not oppressive. People who are oppressed participate in their own suppression all the time, particularly when the mechanisms of oppression are "cultural values". For example, in this very discussion on female genital cutting, the statistics we've just read show that the decision-makers are most often the mothers.

To me personally, all circumcision or genital mutilation on a child is wrong. To make it even more clear, when I see baby girls with pierced ears or even little girls with pierced ears I think it is a violent and barbaric act imposed without consent.

You claim it's wrong, but simultaneously lump it in with these other benign practices. That sends a mixed message.

This doesn't jibe with the mythology of the oppressed Arabic woman that Western women love love love to talk about. Their view of Western women is oddly different, these women often feel empowered in their faith and feel that Western women are oversexualized from a very young age and sexually objectified throughout their lives.
They have a completely different perspective.

And they may be right about western woman being overly sexualized, but I think it's hard to claim that the oppression of Arabic women is just mythology.

 

[truethat]

I disagree with the first comment. I doubt you've been to Egypt or you'd never agree to that. The country is incredibly diverse, you have levels of division not seen in the Western world. Generally speaking in the West there isn't a huge divide between lower and middle class. Maybe rich upper class and the top 1% etc. When I stayed in Egypt for example, it was considered way too much for me to give the Super's wife a gift of oranges and strawberries. This was the woman that lived in the same building as our apartment. We certainly weren't wealthy but compared to the Super's wife it was considered ostentatious and showy to give her so much fruit. There are poorer people in the villages and farmers but in the main cities I visited, Alexandria and Cairo there are very educated women. All of our friends attended college.

In Egypt you can't go into a village and do a study and use that to extrapolate anything other than what it represents about that group. Even neighborhoods are known for being "low class" and "backwards." You can say that the numbers indicate some things but you can't make a definitive statement the way that 90% is thrown around. It's complete BS to do such a thing. It's obvious how wrong it is when used to support claims of racial superiority and other such issues. But when we don't mind the denigration of a race of women we cheerfully WOO it on, when in any other field it would be considered reprehensible to try to pull off such a thing. No one would go into Harlem and try to use the numbers from there to make a broad statement about the entire United States.

Also I do know that piercing ears is benign and in some cases you might consider male circumcision benign too. This is why I say that Western women like to think of FGM as ONLY the pharonic circumcision that is not commonly done. They like to ignore that FGM also includes cutting and piercing etc. The same type of cutting we do to little boys when we circumcise them. Somehow when Westerners do it, it's considered OK. It's a total double standard. I don't think it's ok to mutilate a child's body. Period. No matter how benign you might think it is. This is Western blind spot at work.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

truethat, please read up on sampling methodology and weighting etc, then this might all make a bit more sense to you.

Here's a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)

 

[truethat]

I know how sampling works though I appreciate the link. I still call BS. The study is politically and economically motivated. It's trying to bring to attention the severity of the problem. Well done.

But it is disrespectful of Egyptian woman to use an estimate to say that 97% of the women in the country have had this procedure done when they have done the level of sampling they have done.

Sampling should not cover an entire country's female population. That is ridiculous. There are way too many variables. Religious beliefs, ex Egypt isn't even called Egypt by Egyptians, it's called Masr, Egypt means the land of Coptics and there are many Christians in Egypt as well. The practice of circumcision is historically related to Nubian practices and so there is that as well.

Survey results are typically subject to some error. Total errors can be classified into sampling errors and non-sampling errors. The term "error" here includes systematic biases as well as random errors.
[edit]Sampling errors and biases
Sampling errors and biases are induced by the sample design. They include:
Selection bias: When the true selection probabilities differ from those assumed in calculating the results.
Random sampling error: Random variation in the results due to the elements in the sample being selected at random.
[edit]Non-sampling error
Non-sampling errors are other errors which can impact the final survey estimates, caused by problems in data collection, processing, or sample design. They include:
Overcoverage: Inclusion of data from outside of the population.
Undercoverage: Sampling frame does not include elements in the population.
Measurement error: e.g. when respondents misunderstand a question, or find it difficult to answer.
Processing error: Mistakes in data coding.
Non-response: Failure to obtain complete data from all selected individuals.
After sampling, a review should be held of the exact process followed in sampling, rather than that intended, in order to study any effects that any divergences might have on subsequent analysis. A particular problem is that of non-response.
Two major types of nonresponse exist: unit nonresponse (referring to lack of completion of any part of the survey) and item nonresponse (submission or participation in survey but failing to complete one or more components/questions of the survey).[6][7] In survey sampling, many of the individuals identified as part of the sample may be unwilling to participate, not have the time to participate (opportunity cost),[8] or survey administrators may not have been able to contact them. In this case, there is a risk of differences, between respondents and nonrespondents, leading to biased estimates of population parameters. This is often addressed by improving survey design, offering incentives, and conducting follow-up studies which make a repeated attempt to contact the unresponsive and to characterize their similarities and differences with the rest of the frame.[9] The effects can also be mitigated by weighting the data when population benchmarks are available or by imputing data based on answers to other questions.

I've asked for the limitations of the study which no one has posted, the limitations of the study will give a more accurate picture of what they actually found out.

 

[Mycroft]

I know how sampling works though I appreciate the link. I still call BS. The study is politically and economically motivated. It's trying to bring to attention the severity of the problem. Well done.

But it is disrespectful of Egyptian woman to use an estimate to say that 97% of the women in the country have had this procedure done when they have done the level of sampling they have done.

Okay, now I'm confused.

You say the extreme diversity and stratification of Egyptian society is so great as to invalidate scientific sampling techniques, but wouldn't that also invalidate your own informal sampling? We've established that well educated urban people are the least likely to have their genitals cut, and isn't that exactly your peer group?

 

[Morrigan]

 

[truethat]

Sigh. When I heard the numbers that were being touted at 97% of Egyptian women, and then realized that none of the women I knew (at that time it would have been about 30-40 women) had had this procedure done, or knew anyone who did, I began to question those numbers.

Obviously I am not basing this on my 'friends' I based my skepticism on that but moved into looking at the actual numbers. The actual 90% is not an accurate number. It's a percentage of a percentage even though it's rarely used that way. In addition when I looked into who was doing these studies it made me more suspect because the agencies who are paying for these studies economically benefit from the more drastic figures.

Further examination shows the tradition is largely linked to Nubian culture and that as your study showed the higher the education, the less likely that they will have it done. Half of all college students in Egypt are women. Egyptian women have a high rate of education in most of Cairo and Alexandria. So it starts to seem as though they are slanting the figures in a bias to show a story they want to show.

I am not saying there isn't a problem. I am saying that Western women seem to get off on a sense of superiority towards Middle Eastern women. They suggest they are uneducated oppressed women forced to wear the hijab and endure FGM and that is just total BS in my anecdotal experience and also the non biased statistics.

I don't see what the big deal is in me asking if you could show the study limitations, why they are not posted along with the reports of the numbers is very strange.

I used to have a joke about how empowered I felt Egyptian women were, that is that I never met an Egyptian female nurse but I regularly have met Egyptian female doctors. It's interesting to look at how readily Western women are to paint this negative portrayal of Egyptian women, to strip them of their empowerment and autonomy by suggesting they are too stupid or brainwashed to decided to wear a hijab etc etc etc. This BS figure is just another racist way that Western women like to denigrate these women as victims.

If you have actual numbers with the study limitations to show I'll eat my words but in 8 years I've never seen them. I have seen plenty of Western women parading these numbers around without a second thought of consideration.

The other thing is that it's frickin' illegal. So where exactly are all these women having this done? Again with the racist Western stereotype that Egyptian mothers don't care about their daughters and would risk them having unsanitary medical procedures because of some tradition. The likelihood of 97% of the women in the country being able to do this should make your common sense flag start waving.

This only works if Egyptian women are backward savages with no regard for their daughters health who will drag them into unsafe places to be slashed with blades and not have any anesthesia.

But please by all means go on with your racist opinions. Most of Egyptian mothers I met were loving mothers who would never ever consider doing such a thing to their daughters.

But yes those women I know must make up the 3-10% of Egyptian women with moral decency.

 

[Morrigan]

*accusations of racism*

Awesome.

 

[Mycroft]

Sigh. When I heard the numbers that were being touted at 97% of Egyptian women, and then realized that none of the women I knew (at that time it would have been about 30-40 women) had had this procedure done, or knew anyone who did, I began to question those numbers.

So the practice happens, you’re just skeptical about the numbers. Fair?

Obviously I am not basing this on my 'friends' I based my skepticism on that but moved into looking at the actual numbers. The actual 90% is not an accurate number. It's a percentage of a percentage even though it's rarely used that way. In addition when I looked into who was doing these studies it made me more suspect because the agencies who are paying for these studies economically benefit from the more drastic figures.

This last part sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. I don’t think that makes a strong motivation to lie about the numbers.

Further examination shows the tradition is largely linked to Nubian culture and that as your study showed the higher the education, the less likely that they will have it done. Half of all college students in Egypt are women. Egyptian women have a high rate of education in most of Cairo and Alexandria. So it starts to seem as though they are slanting the figures in a bias to show a story they want to show.

Women as a whole? Or women of privilege?

I am not saying there isn't a problem. I am saying that Western women seem to get off on a sense of superiority towards Middle Eastern women. They suggest they are uneducated oppressed women forced to wear the hijab and endure FGM and that is just total BS in my anecdotal experience and also the non biased statistics.

On one hand organizations lie to get funds, but it’s also just Western prejudices against Egyptians? If that were the case, wouldn’t the statistics be uniformly bad across the Arab world?

I don't see what the big deal is in me asking if you could show the study limitations, why they are not posted along with the reports of the numbers is very strange.

I’m not exactly clear on what you’re asking for. The last link I posted went into detail on methodology. As far as “limitations” go Professor Yaffle pointed out that many of the people interviewed hadn’t been cut yet, and I pointed out it would be useful to have a statistical breakdown by age…but as for as more information on the studies, none of are claiming to have written them or been a part of publishing them, only that it’s information that we’ve found and that shapes our opinions. Once they’re presented and you know where they come from, then you have access to as much information about them as we do.

The other thing is that it's frickin' illegal. So where exactly are all these women having this done? Again with the racist Western stereotype that Egyptian mothers don't care about their daughters and would risk them having unsanitary medical procedures because of some tradition. The likelihood of 97% of the women in the country being able to do this should make your common sense flag start waving.

I don’t think anyone claims Egyptian women don’t love their children. When they talk about motivation, which is important to address if the practice is to stop, the motivations are all good, just misguided. If you honestly believe this practice prevents sexual promiscuity or that a woman who doesn’t have it done will be unable to get married, then you have it done because you love your daughter.

There were similar issues with breast ironing. The mothers who do that to their kids want to protect them against rape and early childbirth. It’s an awful choice made by people who don’t’ have good options to choose from.

But yes those women I know must make up the 3-10% of Egyptian women with moral decency.

More like the women you know come from that 3-10%. Is that wrong?

 

[truethat]

Fair comments all the way down. But think about it. I wrote that last sentence on purpose. It may well be that all the women I know are from that 10% and I've always stated that. Go back and read the first comment I made on this issue.

What concerns me is not so much the number but the way Western women accept this number because it conforms to their confirmation bias. Thus 90% of women ages 14-48 is translated as 90% of all Egyptian women. 90% of uneducated women is translated as 90% of all Egyptian women.

The math simply doesn't make sense. If it is prevalent in only 9% of girls who attend private institutions that shows, as we have noted, that education plays a huge role. But this distinction is never made when the numbers are thrown around.

It's based on Western women's sense of superiority over Arabic women that they like to patronize them.

If this practice is illegal then it means that women have to basically go to "back door abortion" type places with their daughters in order to get it done.

I do not believe that 97% of Egyptian mothers would do this to their daughters. Do you?

 

[trustbutverify]

Piercing your genitals would be considered Female Genital Mutilation by WHO unless of course it was done in the US. Then it would be considered "cool."

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

Is this supposed to be some kind of a joke? Do you have even a rudimentary understanding of statistics or female genital mutilation?

 

[truethat]

Yes, do you? If you do then by all means list the study limitations so this can be brushed off the table and ended here, since I'm apparently so wrong.

None of you have posted them. Just told me I don't know what I'm talking about. Newsflash, neither do you. That's why you can't answer a simple question.

Where were the studies done? How old were the participants, when was the study done, how many participants, were all of the participants physically examined?

You can see the difficulty in doing such a study for some simple reasons.

The first is that it is illegal
The second is that in some groups it is a cultural norm.

This creates several problems. If it's illegal women may not wish to admit they had it done. If it is the cultural norm women may lie and say they have done or will do it to their daughters in order to acclimate to their society.

Additionally there are problems with levels. Most Western women regard FGM as excision with infibulation which is the most horrific of the practices. But in reality most women do not have this done. They may do other equally horrible things but not in the way that Western women perceive it. Those are done ritualistically and as a perceived form of beautification. The same way boys are circumcised here.

IMO all is wrong. But many Westerners excuse and justify male circumcision while ridiculing FGM as barbaric. You see excuses made for it all the time. Why? Well when we do it, it's not barbaric. Then it's ok.

Instead of just posting personal attacks against me, why not post some actual information. And don't just slap a link up. You know why? Because most of you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know how to read the information and have no idea what I'm actually saying.

That doesn't include everyone in the thread. It's quite obvious those who do know what they are talking about.

 

[Mycroft]

Fair comments all the way down. But think about it. I wrote that last sentence on purpose. It may well be that all the women I know are from that 10% and I've always stated that. Go back and read the first comment I made on this issue.

So we agree there is a perfectly plausible reason why your personal experience doesn't match the statistical information?

What concerns me is not so much the number but the way Western women accept this number because it conforms to their confirmation bias. Thus 90% of women ages 14-48 is translated as 90% of all Egyptian women. 90% of uneducated women is translated as 90% of all Egyptian women.

The math simply doesn't make sense. If it is prevalent in only 9% of girls who attend private institutions that shows, as we have noted, that education plays a huge role. But this distinction is never made when the numbers are thrown around.

I beg to differ, the distinction is made very clearly in the study we are arguing about.

If I'm understanding you correctly, it seems as though part of your objections is that your upper-class friends are not properly shielded from the stigma of this practice?

It's based on Western women's sense of superiority over Arabic women that they like to patronize them.

If for you the real issue is that your pride has been stung, I'm not very sympathetic. I don't believe Western women like to patronize Arabic women as much as you think.

If this practice is illegal then it means that women have to basically go to "back door abortion" type places with their daughters in order to get it done.

I imagine they do it by whatever means it was done for the past two-thousand years before it was made illegal. Isn't that a reasonable assumption?

I do not believe that 97% of Egyptian mothers would do this to their daughters. Do you?

I think that the evidence in this thread places the number firmly between 50% and 90%. For myself it's not that important to know exactly where the number is, but for humanitarian reasons I want the number to trend downward as much as possible and as quickly as possible.

For you, I think that if it's truly important to establish that the number is significantly less than 90%, then maybe it's time to bring some of your own evidence to the table. You haven't done that yet.

 

[truethat]

You think my friends were "upper class?" Perhaps I didn't explain it well before. But no not all of them were upper class. The class distinctions there are very different than here in the States. I tried to point that out earlier.

My point is that I do not think they are accurately portraying the number of women who have had this procedure done.

I've asked for the limitations of the study (sigh, once again) to determine this but no one seems to have them.


50-90% is a huge huge difference in number. As I stated many times, it was the 97% that gave me pause that it was grossly exaggerated.

You suggest no racism in your ideas but then suggest that the majority of Egyptian women are going to revert to barbaric practices going back 2,000 years. You don't see the inherent racism and prejudice and denigration towards Egyptian Women in your comment. I do not believe that 97% of Egyptian mothers would do such a thing.


We would not be having this conversation if they stated that 50% of Egyptian women had this procedure done and were willing to do it to their daughters. I would believe that. But 97% is total BS in my opinion.


I did post evidence earlier that explained it's own study limitations. In addition your own figures show that ONLY 50% of women have said they did it to their daughters and of those who had not yet had daughters ONLY 38% said they would do it to their own daughters. So which is it?

97% or 38%-50%???

 

[Mycroft]

You think my friends were "upper class?" Perhaps I didn't explain it well before. But no not all of them were upper class. The class distinctions there are very different than here in the States. I tried to point that out earlier.

So only most of your Egyptian friends are upper class?

My point is that I do not think they are accurately portraying the number of women who have had this procedure done.

I've asked for the limitations of the study (sigh, once again) to determine this but no one seems to have them.

And again, if you're given the source of the statistics then you have just as much access to the information as does anyone else.

50-90% is a huge huge difference in number. As I stated many times, it was the 97% that gave me pause that it was grossly exaggerated.

I don't know where the 97% came from. I remember the 90%.

You suggest no racism in your ideas but then suggest that the majority of Egyptian women are going to revert to barbaric practices going back 2,000 years. You don't see the inherent racism and prejudice and denigration towards Egyptian Women in your comment. I do not believe that 97% of Egyptian mothers would do such a thing.

You yourself said you believe the 50% figure. How do you suppose they're getting it done? We're not arguing about methods, only numbers. As far as I can tell, we agree on the methods, so you can't go calling me racist for that.

I did post evidence earlier that explained it's own study limitations. In addition your own figures show that ONLY 50% of women have said they did it to their daughters and of those who had not yet had daughters ONLY 38% said they would do it to their own daughters. So which is it?

97% or 38%-50%???

The figures I posted has more than 50% of school aged girls being cut, and as Professor Yaffle pointed out, that would include people who haven't been cut yet. I think it's reasonable to assume the total number is closer to 90% than 50%. As I said before, exactly where that falls is more important to you than to me, so I suggest if you want to move forward you find some information of your own to bring to the table to support whatever it is you want to get across.

Speaking of Hijabs, going back a few posts, have you seen the thread about Mali, and how Ansar Dine has taken over a good chunk of it and is now making the women wear head coverings? I think if you give it a few years those woman will say they wear them from religious convictions, just like your Egyptian friends say. They will probably be sincere too. Only thing is it wasn't long ago they were able to be religious without wearing them. I think that's why people think it's oppressive.

 

[truethat]

I think people think it's oppressive because they don't understand why women want to cover. I've done extensive research into head covering and many women I interviewed said they resent being told they don't know how to think for themselves and are culturally swayed when it's a religious conviction that is very personal.

Cut yet? If only 38% of the women interviewed stated they would do it to their daughters I fail how to see this is an indication that the numbers will go to 90%. The study I found had the number at 97% if you click the link you can read it there.

And no not all of the women I know were upper class. Educated and upper class are not the same thing. Many of the educated women I know would be considered poor by Western standards.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Nobody is saying that the numbers for school children will rise to 90%. Just that these are the current numbers for adults. As it seems to be decreasing, the percentage of adults that have had it done will decrease. If the average at the time of a particular UN study was 90%, it is likely that the figure is higher than this for oldest women in the survey and lower than this for the youngest women. As the older ones (with the highest rate) leave the sample group because of age and younger ones (with a lower rate) join it, the average will be lower. The figure may well be below 90% now because it is some years since the figures we are looking at were recorded.

Also we have to bear in mind that some women who say they don't intend to have it done to their children might change their minds because of family and community pressure - eg worries that their daughter will not be able to marry.

 

[WildCat]

I know how sampling works

That's not at all in evidence by your posts in this thread.

 

[Mycroft]

I think people think it's oppressive because they don't understand why women want to cover. I've done extensive research into head covering and many women I interviewed said they resent being told they don't know how to think for themselves and are culturally swayed when it's a religious conviction that is very personal.

It's not hard to understand reasons for wearing it. Modestly, culture, religion, fashion...they express themselves in different ways but they influence people of all cultures, and people of all cultures can understand them.

What doesn't seem apparent to you is that wearing a hijab can also have political and societal ramifications. Even disregarding opinions from the Western world, within Egypt itself it can lend itself to fears of Salafist political leanings and an overall openness to potentially repressive Islamist influences gaining influence. Add that to what's happening in other parts of the globe, such as recently mentioned Mali, and one would need to be a fool to dismiss these concerns.

Cut yet? If only 38% of the women interviewed stated they would do it to their daughters I fail how to see this is an indication that the numbers will go to 90%. The study I found had the number at 97% if you click the link you can read it there.

And no not all of the women I know were upper class. Educated and upper class are not the same thing. Many of the educated women I know would be considered poor by Western standards.

Either way, it's reason why your personal experience doesn't match the statistics.

 

[truethat]

Nobody is saying that the numbers for school children will rise to 90%. Just that these are the current numbers for adults. As it seems to be decreasing, the percentage of adults that have had it done will decrease. If the average at the time of a particular UN study was 90%, it is likely that the figure is higher than this for oldest women in the survey and lower than this for the youngest women. As the older ones (with the highest rate) leave the sample group because of age and younger ones (with a lower rate) join it, the average will be lower. The figure may well be below 90% now because it is some years since the figures we are looking at were recorded.

Also we have to bear in mind that some women who say they don't intend to have it done to their children might change their minds because of family and community pressure - eg worries that their daughter will not be able to marry.

I think you can see my concern with the figures. I think the 90% is grossly exaggerated. I fail to see how any random study can logistically account for 90% of the women in any country. I disagree with the whole concept of sampling in the first place. Especially when politics are thrown into the mix.

But to me it's common sense that if ONLY 38% of women who had it done are saying they might have it done to their daughters, it doesn't jibe with the numbers at 90%. So why the need to exaggerate these figures?

I guess we will agree to disagree. I don't like sociology for this very reason. I prefer to deal with people as individuals, not statistics.