War on Women in the Middle East

[Mycroft]

An article in response in the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/25/arab-men-women-mona-eltahawy?INTCMP=SRCH

Can't say I think much of that article. It boils down to "I can't dispute any of the facts, but I dislike the tone," but I get the feeling the real issue with the tone is that it's very on point and doesn't leave room for apologetics.

 

[Bikewer]

NPR's The World had a segment yesterday on what a woman in Tunisia must do to make a simple charge of assault against an abusive husband.
Debilitating injuries that cause inability to work for up to three weeks, certified diagnosis from medical authorities, etc, etc.
Essentially, spousal abuse is condoned.

 

[a_unique_person]

This line in the article:



This is, I think, why the situation of women in the Muslim world is probably going to get worse before it gets better.

Saudi Arabia is massively wealthy, controls the center of the Muslim religion, and is horrifically (and openly) brutal and repressive towards women. And as long as all those things remain true, its their influence which will predominate.

There are many misogynistic societies around the world. It's mostly cultural, and predates the religions.

 

[I Ratant]

Did you ever read the Dune books? In it, there was a xenophobic, totalitarian religious group called the Tleilaxu whose specialty was biologically engineered products. They would produce these in what were called axlotl tanks. As the series progresses, it's revealed that these "tanks" are in fact Tleilaxu women. The women are used precisely like that: as mere wombs, part of an industrial process. They have no life and no existence outside of that role.

Quite a lot of Dune was inspired by Islam.

.
I never read the later Dune books.. now I see I'm happier having done that.
It's not only Islam that treats women like portable wombs, it's pretty much endemic in Africa and Asia.
There's subcultures here that consider women as chattel, easily disposed of.
The effort to raise their status in the Stone Age countries will take a long time, needing to begin with education of the young people, to have them discard the tribal lore that keeps them in the Stone Age.
Won't be easy, or quick.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm sure they have a lot of great achievents in other fields to make up for forced marriages to old men and genital mutilation. Oh wait they don't.

I get your point, and I can't say I disagree, but tyr_13 is right too.

For criticism to be at all useful it has to be more than just blanket condemnation, it has to also recognize the possibility of improvement. Just saying the culture sucks in every aspect doesn't do that.

It's important to remember that culture is not a single monolithic thing. It's a construct of countless aesthetics and values, often contradictory, that make up a whole.

If we narrow the discussion of this culture to a few very specific practices, such as female genital mutilation and child brides, it's true that Arab culture embraces these practices. But it's also true that countless Arabs, who are just as much a part of Arab culture as anyone else, are horrified by these practices and would never participate themselves or allow their daughters to be treated this way. Reforming the culture means encouraging the one aspect while discouraging the other. It's also important to remember that what's practiced in the mountains of Yemen or Afghanistan isn't necessarily what's practiced in the cities of the UAE or Lebanon.

There are awful things that happen within Arab culture, but recognition of this needs to go beyond simple expression of overall approval or disapproval.

 

[Mycroft]

There are many misogynistic societies around the world. It's mostly cultural, and predates the religions.

Religious practices reflect and reinforce cultural practices. Unless you want to argue from the point of view of a believer and try to identify the correct and true religion, I really don't see the point in trying to separate them.

 

[WildCat]

There are many misogynistic societies around the world. It's mostly cultural, and predates the religions.

Yes, thst's why it has been incorporated into the religion.

 

[Virus]

I get your point, and I can't say I disagree, but tyr_13 is right too.

For criticism to be at all useful it has to be more than just blanket condemnation, it has to also recognize the possibility of improvement. Just saying the culture sucks in every aspect doesn't do that.

It's important to remember that culture is not a single monolithic thing. It's a construct of countless aesthetics and values, often contradictory, that make up a whole.

If we narrow the discussion of this culture to a few very specific practices, such as female genital mutilation and child brides, it's true that Arab culture embraces these practices. But it's also true that countless Arabs, who are just as much a part of Arab culture as anyone else, are horrified by these practices and would never participate themselves or allow their daughters to be treated this way. Reforming the culture means encouraging the one aspect while discouraging the other. It's also important to remember that what's practiced in the mountains of Yemen or Afghanistan isn't necessarily what's practiced in the cities of the UAE or Lebanon.

There are awful things that happen within Arab culture, but recognition of this needs to go beyond simple expression of overall approval or disapproval.

I totally agree with you but to cut that paragraph down to two words: Bad culture. Just different ways of saying the same thing.

 

[epepke]

One of my friends posted this on facebook and I pointed out that it's so vitriolic that it borders on misandry.

I'm also incredibly suspicious about the "female circumcision" claims, because having been married to an Egyptian I never ever met a single woman in family or friends who had this procedure done. I think it's manipulated propaganda that everyone just sucks right up as true without really looking at the statistics or numbers.

I'm pretty sure that clitoridectomy exists, because I saw a film of a clitoridectomy being done on television.

I'm pretty sure that it doesn't have much to do with claims of misogyny in any commonplace sense, because the only man involved was the "sanitary barber" (somewhat oddly named, as he was smoking a cigarette and didn't seem to have the slightest regard for sanitation). All the rest present were women who were going "ululululu" like it was the happiest day of their lives.

I'm also pretty sure that this can be figured out even theoretically. The ideal date is a nymphomaniac who owns a pub, and I would be surprised to find too many heterosexual men who disagree. Besides, isn't it one big woman's complaint that women have had to fake all those orgasms to make men happy all those years? How is that supposed to square with the idea that men naturally want women to be unresponsive in bed?

I find the article a bit inchoate to call particularly misandrist. It's confused about who "they" are, but it's fairly typical use of the passive voice when talking about women and letting people fill in the blanks. Still, what is this supposed to be about? For every woman saying that things suck for women in the Middle East, there seem to be about five with headscarves posing for posters and writing articles telling us that Muhammed was a feminist and it's all just the bee's roller skates over there.

Just what is anyone who speaks English as an L1 supposed to do or not do about it? Apart from reading a lot of passive-voice crap, being aware, calling people Islamophobes, and all that other smug-making yuppie scum hand-wringing stuff?

Just what is this "pulsing heart of misogyny in the Middle East?" Besides something to play Ain't it Awful™ and grit one's teeth about between bites of bagels and lox, a cathartic little two-minute hate before firing up the SUV?

 

[Ziggurat]

.
I never read the later Dune books.. now I see I'm happier having done that.

Oh, don't misunderstand me. The Tleilaxu were bad guys in the series. And there were plenty of powerful women, too. In fact, there was a whole religious order of women (the Bene Gesserit) who had developed almost super-human powers. When I say that much of the book was inspired by Islam, I don't mean that the book's view of humanity is an Islamic one. Rather, many elements of this future society, and the mythology of it, involve Islamic elements. But the books as a whole are certainly not misogynist, though there are misogynist characters (but again, they're bad guys). I can't promise you'll like the books, they certainly aren't everyone's style, but don't let that worry keep you away from them. Nor is the Islamic connection the only inspiration - there's also quite a lot of Greek tragedy elements to it, particularly in regards to fate and prophesies.

Oh, and it's also far-future sci-fi.

 

[a_unique_person]

Yes, thst's why it has been incorporated into the religion.

We create the religions, not god. They reflect the prevailing local social beliefs. Hence the wide range of dress required of religious woman, depending on which region they live in, or the requirement for male or female genital mutilation.

 

[I Ratant]

I'm pretty sure that clitoridectomy exists, because I saw a film of a clitoridectomy being done on television.

I'm pretty sure that it doesn't have much to do with claims of misogyny in any commonplace sense, because the only man involved was the "sanitary barber" (somewhat oddly named, as he was smoking a cigarette and didn't seem to have the slightest regard for sanitation). All the rest present were women who were going "ululululu" like it was the happiest day of their lives.

...

.
I went a round or two with Mike Resnick on a sci-fi forum about his series on a future society that began (in the original story) as a habitat at a Lagrange point, but evolved into a planet, where the inhabitants decided to adopt the tribal ways of the Kikuyu tribe.. doing nothing in their society that the 19th Century Kikuyu didn't.
This included FGM.
One of his stories involved a woman who wanted to join the colony, but refused the mutilation. There was some kind of justification for the insistence on the mutilation being an essential point of accepting the culture... despite the knowledge that FGM has no purpose other than humiliation of the woman.
And, it's a rite of passage that all the women on the colony had accepted, and expected all newbies to accept also.
Resnick had spent a lot of time in Africa studying the cultures there, and vigorously defended the practice as he presented it in his stories.
We never achieved anything more than "you're wrong".."No, you're wrong".. in our exchanges.
The chief controller of the colony had access to all the modern conveniences himself, but was still the force behind the insistence on the ordeal, knowing it was pointless, violent and cruel.
But to be a 100% new-Kikuyu, the women had to be mutilated.

 

[truethat]

It's vitriolic and misandrist to denounce the atrocities committed against women? Wot.

Women in the Middle East are generally treated as chattel, in ways that make European women from the Middle Ages and antiquity seem enlightened in comparison. It's not an unfair generalization, it's how it really is.


Hilarious. The real statistics show that it's very much widespread, in the 90+ percents, yet you use your personal anecdotes as evidence instead.


Agreed. I feel for these women, they have a really difficult, uphill battle ahead of them. :|

How exactly is it in the 90% ? That's what I'd like to know. How are these numbers gotten. People of your ilk happily lap up statistics as facts without using common sense to question the reality of the numbers.

So please explain how they know that 90% of Egyptian women have had this procedure done? I was married into the culture for 6 years and became very good friends with many women and family members from the country. And NONE of them had had it done. NONE and none of their family members as well. I think it's a tad odd don't you? I must have known every single member of the 10% I guess?

But no, you just let someone do a "study" never question the motivations of the study , never question who was in the study and never question who is paying for the study as long as it confirms your previously held bias. I love how that seems to make some people feel "smart." When I see people doing that I think they are stupid. Logic and Reasoning show that there is no possible way for them to come up with the number of 90% of the women in the country having it done since they have not interviewed 90% of the women who live in Egypt.


In fact if you look at the actual number you realize that the 90% that people like you throw around is absolutely false to begin with, it doesn't say 90% of the women it says 90% of the women of Childbearing Age which still doesn't jibe with the actual statements

In other words, this means that 91 percent of Egyptian females aged 15-49 years old may have been circumcised, most of them when they were young and could not protect themselves. The surveys are conducted by the U.S.-based Macro International every 5-6 years.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evelyn-leopold/female-circumcism----90-p_b_822283.html

I get your point, and I can't say I disagree, but tyr_13 is right too.

For criticism to be at all useful it has to be more than just blanket condemnation, it has to also recognize the possibility of improvement. Just saying the culture sucks in every aspect doesn't do that.

It's important to remember that culture is not a single monolithic thing. It's a construct of countless aesthetics and values, often contradictory, that make up a whole.

If we narrow the discussion of this culture to a few very specific practices, such as female genital mutilation and child brides, it's true that Arab culture embraces these practices. But it's also true that countless Arabs, who are just as much a part of Arab culture as anyone else, are horrified by these practices and would never participate themselves or allow their daughters to be treated this way. Reforming the culture means encouraging the one aspect while discouraging the other. It's also important to remember that what's practiced in the mountains of Yemen or Afghanistan isn't necessarily what's practiced in the cities of the UAE or Lebanon.

There are awful things that happen within Arab culture, but recognition of this needs to go beyond simple expression of overall approval or disapproval.

Exactly.

Most of these studies are based on the Kenuz Nubian tribes of Egypt. They are not representative of all Egyptian women.


It's especially ironic the way Americans will tout this as a barbaric practice when male circumcision is routinely practiced here in the US. When we do it it's considered "medical". Such a double standard.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

How exactly is it in the 90% ? That's what I'd like to know. How are these numbers gotten. People of your ilk happily lap up statistics as facts without using common sense to question the reality of the numbers.

So please explain how they know that 90% of Egyptian women have had this procedure done? I was married into the culture for 6 years and became very good friends with many women and family members from the country. And NONE of them had had it done. NONE and none of their family members as well. I think it's a tad odd don't you? I must have known every single member of the 10% I guess?

But no, you just let someone do a "study" never question the motivations of the study , never question who was in the study and never question who is paying for the study as long as it confirms your previously held bias. I love how that seems to make some people feel "smart." When I see people doing that I think they are stupid. Logic and Reasoning show that there is no possible way for them to come up with the number of 90% of the women in the country having it done since they have not interviewed 90% of the women who live in Egypt.


In fact if you look at the actual number you realize that the 90% that people like you throw around is absolutely false to begin with, it doesn't say 90% of the women it says 90% of the women of Childbearing Age which still doesn't jibe with the actual statements



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evelyn-leopold/female-circumcism----90-p_b_822283.html






Exactly.

Most of these studies are based on the Kenuz Nubian tribes of Egypt. They are not representative of all Egyptian women.


It's especially ironic the way Americans will tout this as a barbaric practice when male circumcision is routinely practiced here in the US. When we do it it's considered "medical". Such a double standard.

It might help if you read where the figures are from. IIRC they compare different geographical regions of egypt, different religions, urban versus rural and different income levels, which doesn't suggest to me that it was based on a certain group of tribes only.

The prevalence of cutting exceeds 92 percent among women in nearly all regions of Egypt. Women from the sparsely populated Frontier Governorates are least likely to have undergone genital cutting. Even among these women, however, three of four have been cut.

Link are in my post earlier in the thread

 

[Mycroft]

It's especially ironic the way Americans will tout this as a barbaric practice when male circumcision is routinely practiced here in the US. When we do it it's considered "medical". Such a double standard.

Not at all comparable.

While the health benefits of circumcision may be debatable, men who are circumcised grow up to have normal, healthy sex lives. Contrast to female genital mutilation which is specifically designed to make enjoyment from sex impossible, and done late in life to traumatize the woman. Claiming the two are equivalent is nothing short of denial.

 

[truethat]

Not at all comparable.

While the health benefits of circumcision may be debatable, men who are circumcised grow up to have normal, healthy sex lives. Contrast to female genital mutilation which is specifically designed to make enjoyment from sex impossible, and done late in life to traumatize the woman. Claiming the two are equivalent is nothing short of denial.

Not all female circumcision is severe, some might just be ritual cutting without damaging the clitoris. I agree that it is all backwards and barbaric.

I am also aware of the supposed statistics on this issue, but the demographics and actual studies are not clear in the sensationalized way the numbers are thrown around. The numbers are always upwards of 90% based on different factors. Again I must have known every single Egyptian that didn't have it done since no woman I am friends with has had this done or would ever consider doing it to their daughters.

 

[Mycroft]

Not all female circumcision is severe, some might just be ritual cutting without damaging the clitoris. I agree that it is all backwards and barbaric.

If there were indeed such a thing as female circumcision as you describe, it would indeed be just like male circumcision.

I've never heard of it. Can you provide some documentation that proves it exists?

 

[truethat]

Piercing your genitals would be considered Female Genital Mutilation by WHO unless of course it was done in the US. Then it would be considered "cool."

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

Procedures
Female genital mutilation is classified into four major types.

Clitoridectomy: partial or total removal of the clitoris (a small, sensitive and erectile part of the female genitals) and, in very rare cases, only the prepuce (the fold of skin surrounding the clitoris).
Excision: partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (the labia are "the lips" that surround the vagina).
Infibulation: narrowing of the vaginal opening through the creation of a covering seal. The seal is formed by cutting and repositioning the inner, or outer, labia, with or without removal of the clitoris.
Other: all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, e.g. pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterizing the genital area.

 

[Cleon]

Piercing your genitals would be considered Female Genital Mutilation by WHO unless of course it was done in the US voluntarily, by a trained professional using sanitized instruments. Then it would be considered "cool."

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

Fixed that for you.

 

[truethat]

More with the exaggerations. If a woman willingly has a piercing done in the Middle East by a nurse with sanitized instruments it would still be called FGM by Westerners who continually want to paint women in the ME as nothing but victims.