Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

Regardless, I still think the theory that GZ exacerbated his injuries in some way after leaving the police station is ludicrous.

Why?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I have a question for Zimmerman supporters.

We aren't "Zimmerman supporters". We're "truth supporters" who would like to actually analyze the evidence.

The screams on the 911 tapes.

If (let's just say) an audio of Trayman was found, and FBI voice analysis was able to determine with a very clear certainty it was his voice there, how much would that sway your impressions of where you stand on the issue?

Is the FBI voice analysis scientific? Is it widely accepted by the scientific community, i.e. real scientists, not pseudo experts? Can they prove their conclusions be replicating them in double blind tests? Get back to me with those answers and then I'll answer.

 

[Freddy]

Agreed. And considering none of us have seen the EMT report, we have no idea if they just wiped away blood or not. All we have is the observation by the PO.

We do know what first aid they gave, including field tests, and then cleared him, took only a few minutes.

While I have not seen the report, the bond hearing transcript gave me the distinct impression that neither side disputes the bloody nose. Since the lawyers have seen all the reports, I am inclined to believe that the nose was bleeding. That opinion is subject to revision if contradicted by new evidence, of course. But I'm comfortable tentatively accepting that Zimmerman's nose was bleeding.

 

[Matthew Best]

That's an interesting take on what happened. In fact, the media zeroed in pretty quickly on therealgeorgezimmerman.com being the legit website. And they were right. In contrast, here is what you have been claiming:

Getting snarky with johnny karate because he "fell for" the legitimate website:

Spreading misinformation on what actually was depicted on the website:

Claiming that the media (the media that had been consistently reporting for some time that therealgeorgezimmerman.com website was legitimate) didn't know what the real website was:

And once again spreading misinformation about the website (there was no mention of "white people" on the website):

But, of course, it's the media that can't be trusted.

I knew as soon as I saw this post that it would be completely ignored.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

This thread has reached a level of pure idiocy and I'm amazed that the intelligent posters continue to feed the trolls (if I use a more accurate word I'll get moderated). How many posts are you guys going to type giving serious answers to people asserting that GZ broke his own nose, or that his head wasn't really injured, or that GZ is a proven liar because he referred to his father as a magistrate judge? You might as well be spending hours of your time debating with people that believe the lizard people are in charge of the government.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Regardless, I still think the theory that GZ exacerbated his injuries in some way after leaving the police station is ludicrous.

Why?

Because he had already been examined, treated and had his injuries documented by the EMTs and the police. GZ doesn't strike me as the brightest bulb on the porch. I guess that cuts both ways - he is either so dumb he thinks he can fool the police, or too dumb to think up a reasonable plan that would actually fool the police. I go with the latter, as has been the case, AFAIK, with all the evidence. He told his story to the police multiple times without an attorney, and still had the SPD coming out saying 'everything agrees with his story'
Additionally, him going home and doing something like further injuring himself presumes he was guilty in the first place and felt he was going to go to jail ... right after they didn't arrest him and let him go home. Seems to me he might be feeling relieved that they believed him, as opposed to so worried he needed to cook up things to bolster his story. Of course, since he already told the police he was punched in the face ( again, AFAIK, etc) that means he probably either needs to punch himself in the face hard enough to break his nose, or have his wife do it, just to make sure the evidence was consistent. Again, I find that unlikely.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I knew as soon as I saw this post that it would be completely ignored.

Yes, some posters are extremely reluctant to admit to their own mistakes, and that post called them out very well.

 

[johnny karate]

Because he had already been examined, treated and had his injuries documented by the EMTs and the police.

The injuries documented by the police were vague, and we don't know what the EMTs documented. But if what Zimmerman's friend says is true, they most likely didn't document a broken nose.

GZ doesn't strike me as the brightest bulb on the porch. I guess that cuts both ways - he is either so dumb he thinks he can fool the police, or too dumb to think up a reasonable plan that would actually fool the police. I go with the latter, as has been the case, AFAIK, with all the evidence. He told his story to the police multiple times without an attorney, and still had the SPD coming out saying 'everything agrees with his story'

This assumes the police did a thorough investigation and weren't already predisposed to believe Zimmerman's story. You seem quite content to imply that the police officer involved with Zimmerman's earlier arrest was a liar, so I'm not sure why you would assume that the police who investigated this case are infallible.

Additionally, him going home and doing something like further injuring himself presumes he was guilty in the first place and felt he was going to go to jail ... right after they didn't arrest him and let him go home. Seems to me he might be feeling relieved that they believed him, as opposed to so worried he needed to cook up things to bolster his story.

I guess all this depends on what transpired during Zimmerman's interrogation. I doubt the police gave him a "Get out of jail free" card. The case wasn't closed and I'm sure Zimmerman was quite aware of that fact.

Of course, since he already told the police he was punched in the face ( again, AFAIK, etc) that means he probably either needs to punch himself in the face hard enough to break his nose, or have his wife do it, just to make sure the evidence was consistent. Again, I find that unlikely.

Fair enough. Personally, I find it unlikely that a kid without a history of violence decided to lie in ambush and attempt to beat a total stranger to death.

 

[Freddy]

First of all, the police noted his nose was bleeding, not the EMTs. We haven't seen the EMT report yet, so we have no idea what they might have noted.

Secondly, the recommendation to go to the hospital was most likely a precautionary measure for the supposed head trauma Zimmerman suffered. It would make no sense for the EMTs to recommend he go to the hospital for his nose or scalp lacerations, but then basically give him no treatment outside of cleaning the wounds for either.

You are right it was the police who noted that. But I think if there were a dispute on this matter, it would probably have surfaced at the bond hearing. I do not anticipate that the prosecution will argue that Zimmerman's nose was not bleeding.

I agree that the recommendation to go to the hospital was precautionary. But I don't think that really goes to Zimmerman's credibility, since it does not bear on whether his nose was broken or whether his head was bleeding. Neither of those injuries requires hospitalization, so if Zimmerman said he didn't want to go to the hospital, they would have cleared him whether or not he had those particular injuries.

And lastly, the EMTs administered first aid and then cleared Zimmerman for release. That sounds fairly thorough, and to downgrade it to a "brief inspection" is disingenuous.

I didn't intend to imply that brief meant half-assed. I meant only that the EMTs are not doctors, and that their purpose is to render first aid and stabilize, not to diagnose.

And then the prosecution can call the EMTs to the stand and ask them if they had any reason to think Zimmerman had broken nose on the night they treated him.

The end result will either be the EMTs looking incompetent, or Zimmerman looking dishonest.

And then on cross they will testify that the defense expert is correct that broken noses are not always apparent right away. The fact that they did not diagnose a broken nose right away would seem to be consistent with that, so I don't see how that would make the EMTs look incompetent.

No. I think the EMTs would have recommened Zimmerman go to the hospital as a precautionary measure for the head trauma he supposedly suffered. Or do you allege the EMTs thought he should go to the hospital for another reason?

I agree that it was precautionary, but I'm not sure I agree with the significance you appear to be placing on that fact. If you simply mean to point out that declining a trip to the hospital doesn't mean much, then I agree.

If what Zimmerman's friend tells us is true, it means he had a broken nose and the EMTs didn't seem to notice.

Again, a broken nose is not always apparent within minutes of the injury. It is not surprising that they would not say his nose was broken. Even if they suspected it might be broken, they probably wouldn't diagnose it at the scene unless it was displaced.

There seems to be this fine line some people are walking in clinging to the idea that Zimmerman was seriously injured, but explaining away the lack of evidence for those serious injuries that involves incompetence on the part of medical professionals and injuries that appear worse the next day than they did within an hour or so of being inflicted.

No incompetence alleged. And injuries often appear more serious (and hurt a hell of a lot more) the next day. I don't think Zimmerman was injured particularly seriously, but the injuries he claims are also not that serious. I just don't see a significant discrepancy between the claimed injuries and the evidence. I don't know if he's telling the truth about what happened that night, but I don't see evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he's lying. And I say that as someone who thinks he is morally culpable for Martin's death.

 

[RandFan]

If he was attacked after leaving his car, is it his fault?

Dude? Did I say that? I have said many times in this thread that if Zimmerman was attacked by TM it would not be the fault of GZ. So, can we get off the straw men? Could you focus on what I'm saying?

I take it you hate those "Take back the night" marches, right?

And you ask this question because? You are inventing stuff as fast as you can based on things I've never said. Being prudent doesn't mean cowering in fear.

So, is it sensible and prudent to stay in your car when you are scared? Yes or no?

 

[LTC8K6]

What, specifically, does the hilited part mean ?

Does it mean they didn't recommend he go to the hospital ? Does it mean he didn't have a broken nose ?


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.
Paramedics gave him first aid but he said he did not need to go to the hospital. He got medical care the next day.

It's as if people can't read...

 

[LTC8K6]

You cannot say that for certain.

He had blood coming from his nose. That's what police observed.

We have a witness that saw him holding his head right after the shooting. If there is blood there, it gets on his hands. Often time people touch their face /nose/mouth in despair, or that universal sign of 'oh my god."

Yes, that very likely could transfer the dripping blood on his hands to his nose area.

If the police are that stupid, then why even believe their reports? They have probably misplaced the body by 10 feet too. Heck, GZ probably didn't even get treated by SFD at all. Maybe the blood was from the local costume store. GZ probably picked it up on the way to the murder.

Why the hell wouldn't you hold your head if it just got beaten on the concrete?

Jesus H jumping Christ in a gravy boat!

This thread is depressing. Imagine some of these folks on a jury.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

So, is it sensible and prudent to stay in your car when you are scared? Yes or no?

First off, whether you're scared may have very little to do with whether something is prudent, so I'm not sure why you keep pointing to the fact that he was scared as proof that he should not gotten out of the car. But the answer to your question is that whether it was prudent to stay in the car depends on the situation. If TM was gone, no there is no sensible reason to stay in your car just because you are scared, at least not in my estimation.

And if TM ran, he may have quite reasonable assumed that he'd taken off, and was just trying to observe from a distance. Granted, it's quite possible that GZ's assumption was unwise, but just because this event unfolded as it did does not prove that, it's also possible this was an extreme aberration and that in 99 out of 100 other situations his assumption would have been quite reasonable.

 

[LTC8K6]

There are likely many people who would.

His wife is a nursing student, is she not?

Maybe she took care of his injuries the next day.

Yeah "took care"

Wink wink...

She probably made them worse for the docs.

She probably punched him in the nose again, and opened up the scalp wounds.

So the medical reports are irrelevant...

 

[LTC8K6]

Have the psychics arrived yet to tell us what really happened?

 

[armins1b]

How silly can things get? Zimmerman had injuries to his nose and back of his head. The back of his jacket was wet. NO ONE (prosecutor, parents , undertaker) has claimed that Trayvon suffered any injuries. Are you suggesting that Trayvon was screaming for help while he was beating Zimmerman? REPLY TO "RARE TRUTH" 2:18 TODAY

 

[Kaosium]

I'm not even sure it matters anymore. Quite frankly, I'm too lazy to find the link and post it. It was discussed earlier in the thread. If you're that curious, I'm afraid you'll have to find it yourself.

Fair enough.

You made two specific claims. One was that he had a broken nose. Aside from the word of a murder suspect, there's absolutely no evidence of that.

I see, you think the despite the evidence of the bloody nose and the public statements of his lawyer, the claim of a broken nose is effectively disputed due to the circumstance of him not going to the hospital until the next day? I find that a curious strategy, do you think the prosecution will be reduced to that approach in court due to lack of legitimate evidence against him?

The other was that he was being whacked in the head for a significant amount of time, or something to that effect. Aside from the word of a murder suspect, there's absolutely no evidence of that.

You've not yet reviewed the picture of his bloody head? As noted in that ABC report, it was taken mere minutes after the shooting. There's also a witness who saw TM on top beating on GZ with GZ yelling for help.

What you've done - along with several other people in this thread - is to take a claim not yet substantiated with evidence as fact.

Actually that's not true, instead I ignored the bilge that was presented to 'dispute' the legitimate claims because that just confuses an issue and the discussion devolves. However I also understand why it happens, and what it suggests so feel free.

So what was once "Zimmerman claims to have been severely beaten and had his nose broken by Martin" becomes "Zimmerman was severely beaten and had his nose broken by Martin".

Did I describe his beating as 'severely?' If I did I withdraw it, the reason he wasn't severely beaten or killed with his own gun is quite possibly because he used it.

Unless you have a witness who saw that altercation and can confirm those claims, you are assuming facts not in evidence.

To my knowledge there's no witnesses to the starting of the fight, which is probably why we're still discussing it.

So the person who had every right to be where he was not going immediately home... that's what concerns you? Not the guy following him around with a gun?

It's what it suggests, Johnny. Someone initiated the confrontation, someone threw the first punch. George Zimmerman chose to call police and follow after TM and try to find out where he went. Since it's quite clear that nothing more would have happened had TM continued home, if he actually ran because he was 'scared' that strongly suggests TM wished for that encounter to occur, whereas there's evidence from a previous 911 call that GZ wasn't much interested in encountering the sort he was calling police on, which is merely confirmed by the fact he did call police and didn't go waving his gun around to either 'handle it himself' or insist that TM wait for the police to come. What he did is follow after him in his own neighborhood quite likely because he wanted to be able to tell police where he went, all factors considered, especially the one that has him on the ground getting his head beaten and yelling for help.

So the wounds on his head are evidence he was repeatedly struck by Martin? According to whom?

The witness at the scene that went public and whose account was corroborated by other witnesses at the scene going by the original resolution by the Sanford PD.

This is the same guy who assaulted a police officer after the police officer identified himself. This is the same guy who sounds like a complete idiot on his MySpace page. This is the same guy who thought it would be a good idea to follow a suspected criminal around with a gun. This is the same guy who put a bunch of goofy, self-aggrandizing nonsense on the website raising money for his defense. This is the same guy who "forgot" about all the money he raised prior to his bond hearing.

I know, and I know that's all that's left to work with at this point. It will go there and this just might escalate, and it is not impossible it will become the defining issue of the campaign. Maybe someone will come to their senses, but I'm starting to doubt it at this point. I don't think some people are thinking things all the way through, and that's not a good sign, but it's happened before and it will happen again.

Just about everything we know about George Zimmerman suggests that good judgment and not being a moron aren't his strong suits. But if you want to assume he made all the right choices and exhibited level-headedness on a night when we know he had already made at least two bad decisions, be my guest.

We also know with more certainty and more relevance to the issue at hand, that George Zimmerman wanted the police to deal with the problems in the neighborhood, he just wanted to help in little ways. There's other indications that he's the helper type, and as his life is being gone through every little thing about him that's negative will be highlighted, but you're always going to find that. There's a baseline naughtiness that exists in every human being and that can't help but show up somewhere with all the information available in this day and age. Picking those out to define someone's character without remembering the context of everything else is very easy to do, and quite effective oftentimes, but in the end it's destructive of one's understanding.

The 'big thing' here is TM on top of GZ beating him with GZ calling for help, with no provocation known outside GZ being in his truck on the phone with police and going after him to keep him in sight. The other is the gun not coming out until all that happened, even though if he was what some are saying it ought to have.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

If the police are that stupid, then why even believe their reports? They have probably misplaced the body by 10 feet too. Heck, GZ probably didn't even get treated by SFD at all. Maybe the blood was from the local costume store. GZ probably picked it up on the way to the murder.

Why the hell wouldn't you hold your head if it just got beaten on the concrete?

Jesus H jumping Christ in a gravy boat!

This thread is depressing. Imagine some of these folks on a jury.

That's a terrifying thought. Oh wait, that was the OJ Simpson trial. The one where the jurors evidently believe in a conspiracy to frame OJ that so vast that it had to involve time travel to work.

 

[LTC8K6]

How silly can things get? Zimmerman had injuries to his nose and back of his head. The back of his jacket was wet. NO ONE (prosecutor, parents , undertaker) has claimed that Trayvon suffered any injuries. Are you suggesting that Trayvon was screaming for help while he was beating Zimmerman?

Wait until you hear the prosecution's case if you want silly...

 

[LTC8K6]

I have a question for Zimmerman supporters.

The screams on the 911 tapes.

If (let's just say) an audio of Trayman was found, and FBI voice analysis was able to determine with a very clear certainty it was his voice there, how much would that sway your impressions of where you stand on the issue?

Zimmerman supporter? What the hell is that?

I think the eyewitness, that GZ was actually screaming at, asking for help, will suffice.