Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

I thought it was already known the medical records were from the next day. I don't see how that really makes much of a difference, though. It isn't uncommon for someone to initially refuse medical treatment and then realize the next day that their injuries are worse than they thought.

But that's not the case here. Zimmerman didn't refuse treatment. He was treated and cleared by EMTs at the scene. But it seems as if the fact he had a broken nose escaped their notice.

And any alleged exaggeration of the injuries will be relevant only to Zimmerman's credibility...

Which is my entire point.

...since actual injuries are not required in a self-defense claim. I think that only a glaring inconsistency would be enough to really sway a jury with respect to exaggerating the injuries. Nit picking over the details won't get the prosecution anywhere, and may be counter-productive. So if it's something arguable, I don't think it'll matter much at trial.

I'm not sure it's "nit picking" to argue that his injuries are not consistent with the severity of the assault Zimmerman supposedly suffered.

As for the broken nose, I don't see how it wasn't suffered during the altercation. If the prosecutor tries to imply that Zimmerman broke his own nose later in order to exaggerate his injuries, then she should be fired for incompetence. That sort of eye-roll inducing claim will destroy a lawyer's credibility with jury. And once the jury decides you're full of it, even a very strong case becomes lose-able.

Would you break your own nose if you thought it would help you avoid 25 years in prison?

 

[Rare Truth]

I have a question for Zimmerman supporters.

The screams on the 911 tapes.

If (let's just say) an audio of Trayman was found, and FBI voice analysis was able to determine with a very clear certainty it was his voice there, how much would that sway your impressions of where you stand on the issue?

 

[RandFan]

That does sound prudent and sensible advice.

Really? You think so? Hmmm....

Viewed from another perspective though, it's rather like saying: concerned neighbors who decide to try and keep a suspicious character in view so that they can point the cops in the right direction are culpable for any violent/criminal reaction from the 'suspect'. Therefore they should be encouraged to huddle indoors and fear their neighborhood streets.

I never said anyone should huddle in their homes in fear. That's a straw man of your making. I'm saying that if you are in your car and you are scared then stay in your car. Perhaps it's me but that sounds like prudent and sensible adv... wait.

Key points of GZ's behavior are - what distance was GZ following (re: how imprudent he was). And did he ever attempt to confront/restrain/etc (re: did he initiate hostilities).

My key point - If you are scared then stay in your car. Is there something particularly difficult about that? It seems prudent and sensible, right?

 

[Rare Truth]

But that's not the case here. Zimmerman didn't refuse treatment. He was treated and cleared by EMTs at the scene. But it seems as if the fact he had a broken nose escaped their notice.

Which is my entire point.

I'm not sure it's "nit picking" to argue that his injuries are not consistent with the severity of the assault Zimmerman supposedly suffered.

Would you break your own nose if you thought it would help you avoid 25 years in prison?

There are likely many people who would.

His wife is a nursing student, is she not?

Maybe she took care of his injuries the next day.

 

[Freddy]

But that's not the case here. Zimmerman didn't refuse treatment. He was treated and cleared by EMTs at the scene. But it seems as if the fact he had a broken nose escaped their notice.

They noted his nose was bleeding. They recommended that he go to the hospital, but he declined. It is not always immediately clear from a brief inspection whether a nose is broken or not. I don't see any smoking gun here.

Which is my entire point.

Fair enough. But to really damage his credibility, the lack of a plausible alternative explanation is crucial. If the prosecution makes a big deal of the fact that the EMTs didn't diagnose a broken nose, then O'Mara will just call in an expert witness to explain why that isn't really suspicious or unusual at all. It would most likely be a wash.

I'm not sure it's "nit picking" to argue that the injuries are not consistent with the severity of the assault Zimmerman supposedly suffered.

That depends entirely on what the argument is, and what evidence it is based on. That was my point. I was saying the prosecution needs a clear inconsistency that is both material and difficult to explain away.

Would you break your own nose if you thought it would help you avoid 25 years in prison?

He indisputably had an injury to his nose, which was observed to be bleeding. I find the suggestion that his nose was not broken, and that he later broke it on purpose, to be utterly implausible. If the EMTs did not observe an injury to his nose, and he suddenly had a broken nose the next day, that would be different.

 

[Giz]

Really? You think so? Hmmm....

I never said anyone should huddle in their homes in fear. That's a straw man of your making. I'm saying that if you are in your car and you are scared then stay in your car. Perhaps it's me but that sounds like prudent and sensible adv... wait.

My key point - If you are scared then stay in your car. Is there something particularly difficult about that? It seems prudent and sensible, right?

If he was attacked after leaving his car, is it his fault?

I take it you hate those "Take back the night" marches, right?

 

[Rare Truth]

If he was attacked after leaving his car, is it his fault?

I take it you hate those "Take back the night" marches, right?

Wha huh?

???

 

[TheL8Elvis]

But that's not the case here. Zimmerman didn't refuse treatment. He was treated and cleared by EMTs at the scene. But it seems as if the fact he had a broken nose escaped their notice.

What, specifically, does the hilited part mean ?

Does it mean they didn't recommend he go to the hospital ? Does it mean he didn't have a broken nose ?


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.
Paramedics gave him first aid but he said he did not need to go to the hospital. He got medical care the next day.

 

[Freddy]

If he was attacked after leaving his car, is it his fault?

Well, that sort of depends on what happened after he left the car, doesn't it? We don't know who started the fight. Don't confuse a lack of evidence that Zimmerman is lying with positive evidence he is telling the truth. In a trial, the burden of proof is on the prosecution; that's why I don't think Zimmerman will convicted. But that is different from believing he is telling the truth. I have no idea whether he is telling the truth. Also, if Zimmerman behaved recklessly in following Martin, then even though that does not make him guilty of a crime, it is still fair to blame him for his poor judgment.

 

[Rare Truth]

...
He indisputably had an injury to his nose, which was observed to be bleeding. ....

You cannot say that for certain.

He had blood coming from his nose. That's what police observed.

We have a witness that saw him holding his head right after the shooting. If there is blood there, it gets on his hands. Often time people touch their face /nose/mouth in despair, or that universal sign of 'oh my god."

Yes, that very likely could transfer the dripping blood on his hands to his nose area.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

There are likely many people who would.

His wife is a nursing student, is she not?

Cosmetologist ... same thing.

Maybe she took care of his injuries the next day.

CT forum is ----> that way.

 

[Freddy]

You cannot say that for certain.

He had blood coming from his nose. That's what police observed.

We have a witness that saw him holding his head right after the shooting. If there is blood there, it gets on his hands. Often time people touch their face /nose/mouth in despair, or that universal sign of 'oh my god."

Yes, that very likely could transfer the dripping blood on his hands to his nose area.

Well, I guess I can't be completely certain, but I would expect a trained paramedic to be able to tell the difference between a bleeding nose and blood that was transferred by touching one's face with blood on one's hands. They don't really look the same, and one of the paramedics' first priorities is to locate all active bleeds and get them under control.

 

[Giz]

Well, that sort of depends on what happened after he left the car, doesn't it? We don't know who started the fight.

Indeed.

But there are HUGE difference between:

(a) GZ exits the car, follows TM at a distance, doesn't anticipate confrontation but wants to be able to point the cops in right direction.

and

(b) GZ exits the car, chases after TM to get close to him.

and

(c) GZ exits the car, chases after TM and initiates some kind of confrontation.


If, and this is an IF, GZ was doing option (a) then I don't think he could be accused of more than slightly rash. I would hate to come down more hard than that on option (a) as I think that locals should be able to keep a watch on their neighborhood without having fingers pointed at them for inviting trouble.

(Now as you progress to (b) and (c) you are definitely moving into 'inviting trouble' and 'starting trouble' territory)

 

[Freddy]

Indeed.

But there are HUGE difference between:

(a) GZ exits the car, follows TM at a distance, doesn't anticipate confrontation but wants to be able to point the cops in right direction.

and

(b) GZ exits the car, chases after TM to get close to him.

and

(c) GZ exits the car, chases after TM and initiates some kind of confrontation.


If, and this is an IF, GZ was doing option (a) then I don't think he could be accused of more than slightly rash. I would hate to come down more hard than that on option (a) as I think that locals should be able to keep a watch on their neighborhood without having fingers pointed at them for inviting trouble.

(Now as you progress to (b) and (c) you are definitely moving into 'inviting trouble' and 'starting trouble' territory)

I can't disagree with this.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Then stay in your ******* car.

Sometimes the discussion gets a bit abstract and then you see something like this that pulls you back to Earth. I don't know if that is the truth but if it was, WTF. Dude, if you are scared while you are sitting in your car then go the **** home. And I'm not taking GZ to task for being scared. People who are armed and scared ought not be following suspicious people when no crime has been committed.

Thanks, I agree. If some creepy guy is out and about, go the **** home.

Don't hide in the bushes talking on the phone, or continue to wander about outside in the rain, go home !

It seems like neither party had much sense in this case.

 

[Rare Truth]

Cosmetologist ... same thing.



CT forum is ----> that way.

She testified at the Bond hearing she was a nursing student and a few weeks weeks away from graduation.

Did you even hear the bond hearing?

 

[Rare Truth]

Well, I guess I can't be completely certain, but I would expect a trained paramedic to be able to tell the difference between a bleeding nose and blood that was transferred by touching one's face with blood on one's hands. They don't really look the same, and one of the paramedics' first priorities is to locate all active bleeds and get them under control.

Agreed. And considering none of us have seen the EMT report, we have no idea if they just wiped away blood or not. All we have is the observation by the PO.

We do know what first aid they gave, including field tests, and then cleared him, took only a few minutes.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

She testified at the Bond hearing she was a nursing student and a few weeks weeks away from graduation.

Did you even hear the bond hearing?

If you already knew that, why did you ask

I guess I did not see the entire beginning of the bond hearing, no. And she is a licensed cosmetologist. But I missed the part about nursing, sorry.

Regardless, I still think the theory that GZ exacerbated his injuries in some way after leaving the police station is ludicrous.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Agreed. And considering none of us have seen the EMT report, we have no idea if they just wiped away blood or not. All we have is the observation by the PO.

We do know what first aid they gave, including field tests, and then cleared him, took only a few minutes.

Feel free to elaborate on what that means technically, and why it is so important that he was cleared.

 

[johnny karate]

They noted his nose was bleeding. They recommended that he go to the hospital, but he declined. It is not always immediately clear from a brief inspection whether a nose is broken or not. I don't see any smoking gun here.

First of all, the police noted his nose was bleeding, not the EMTs. We haven't seen the EMT report yet, so we have no idea what they might have noted.

Secondly, the recommendation to go to the hospital was most likely a precautionary measure for the supposed head trauma Zimmerman suffered. It would make no sense for the EMTs to recommend he go to the hospital for his nose or scalp lacerations, but then basically give him no treatment outside of cleaning the wounds for either.

And lastly, the EMTs administered first aid and then cleared Zimmerman for release. That sounds fairly thorough, and to downgrade it to a "brief inspection" is disingenuous.

Fair enough. But to really damage his credibility, the lack of a plausible alternative explanation is crucial. If the prosecution makes a big deal of the fact that the EMTs didn't diagnose a broken nose, then O'Mara will just call in an expert witness to explain why that isn't really suspicious or unusual at all. It would most likely be a wash.

And then the prosecution can call the EMTs to the stand and ask them if they had any reason to think Zimmerman had broken nose on the night they treated him.

The end result will either be the EMTs looking incompetent, or Zimmerman looking dishonest.

What, specifically, does the hilited part mean ?

I think the meaning is self-evident.

Does it mean they didn't recommend he go to the hospital ?

No. I think the EMTs would have recommened Zimmerman go to the hospital as a precautionary measure for the head trauma he supposedly suffered. Or do you allege the EMTs thought he should go to the hospital for another reason?

Does it mean he didn't have a broken nose ?

If what Zimmerman's friend tells us is true, it means he had a broken nose and the EMTs didn't seem to notice.

There seems to be this fine line some people are walking in clinging to the idea that Zimmerman was seriously injured, but explaining away the lack of evidence for those serious injuries that involves incompetence on the part of medical professionals and injuries that appear worse the next day than they did within an hour or so of being inflicted.