Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I lived in Virginia for 14 years and have firsthand experience with their court system.

Edited by Locknar: 

Edited, breach of rule 12.

 

[Dancing David]

We know he was treated by EMT and cleared.

What does that mean? GZ could have refused treatment ASA/AMA

Where do you have the EMT report?

 

[Dancing David]

Proof provided with direct quotes as asked.

That's a description of a person who had a definite reaction to GZ and "approached GZ's vehicle with intent". If TM was just walking along a path that took him towards GZ's truck then there shouldn't have been the moments where GZ said "now he's coming towards me" and "he's coming to check me out".

No it isn't, are you claiming that GZ could devine TM's intent?

Additionally, the courtroom testiomony of the the police and prosecutor of what GZ stated is further evidence.

DE LA RIONDA: Did he, Mr. Zimmerman, the defendant, at one point claim to the police that he was scared because Mr. Martin started circling his car?

GILBREATH: Yes.

(A discussion about what exactly TM's intent was or questions about GZ's credibility are more complicated and I don't want to jump ahead to that before setting up foundation for that discussion.)

I am arguing there is most definitely evidence that TM "did not just happen to walk past the car."

Do you still disagree?

That is still a matter that will be resolved. If GZ testifies to it in court, then it will be evidence.

I had not read the whole transcript so I will consider that as a possibility. The question is will GZ testify to it in court and then answers the questions of why this agrees with his other statements or not. This will be gone over to death in the trial if GZ was not consistent.

Thanks for the info!

 

[johnny karate]

Zimmerman claimed the injuries the night of the attack without benefit of witness testimony.

I don't know that that's true. It's unlikely he self-diagnosed a broken nose and a need for stitches, only then to refuse to go to the hospital for treatment of either.

Every eyewitness to the altercation asserts that one person was on top of the other. At least one identified Zimmerman as the person on bottom and that he was being beaten. None of the other eyewitnesses that I am aware of dispute that placement.

I don't doubt this part of Zimmerman's story. What I doubt is the part where Martin was repeatedly bashing his head against the concrete. No one else saw that.

Eyewitness to the aftermath report Zimmerman holding his head, looking dazed and pacing.

I'm not sure how that's evidence of anything. He just killed someone. I would imagine that would put anyone in a daze.

A witness to the aftermath photographed the injuries.

Which proved to be less severe then in the narrative we were given.

Zimmerman's photographed and police documented injuries are consistent with the claim that Martin beat Zimmerman's head against the cement.

According to whom?

Though the police did assert inconsistencies with (and in) Zimmerman's claim, when directly confronted about this specific claim, the investigator had no evidence to dispute it - even after months of investigation.

Yes, and this occurred during a bond hearing, not a trial. The investigation is still ongoing.

The prosecution has to explain these injuries.

And the defense will have to explain their lack of severity in the face of Zimmerman's narrative. If it is ultimately determined that Zimmerman did exaggerate his injuries - and therefore fabricated parts of his story - I think the defense will have a tougher time with Zimmerman's credibility than the prosecution will in explaining what injuries he did have.

So you're claiming that any treatment not given by EMTs are medicially unneccessary? The broken nose would not have neccessarily been treated by the responder becuase there's nothing really they could do for it at the scene and it didn't pose any immediate concern. The responder could well have an opinion if the nose was or was not broken, but that's not a definitive diagnosis.

What I'm claiming is that - according to Zimmerman's friend - he didn't even know his nose was broken until the next day. I'm not suggesting the EMTs offer a definitive diagnosis or full-scale treatment on site. I'm suggesting it's damn strange that it didn't come up at all.

I don't even know why we're arguing this point - the evidence will bear itself out in this matter. It's not really subjective or argumentative in nature. Remember in the bond hearing when O'Mara had his little joke on the investigator he asked about a "broken nose" (lay term), picked up the medical report to display to the witness, stopped himself and restated "fractured nose" (medical term)? What do you think that medical report is going to say?

I don't doubt that medical report will say Zimmerman had a broken nose... the next day. What would be helpful and reliable is a medical report immediately after the incident telling us the same thing.

The idea that Zimmerman presented at the scene to witnesses seconds after the altercation with a bloody nose, had it documented by police along with signs of signifigant head trauma...

Significant head trauma? I don't think so. He had two cuts on his head, and what looked like maybe a scrape.

...hung out with the police the rest of the night, then went home and decided to break his nose to bolster his claims would be an interesting argument to present to a jury.

Stranger things have happened. He's a desperate man facing a serious criminal charge.

That still doesn't explain the head injuries, does it?

No one is saying he didn't receive any injuries at all. It's the severity of the injuries he received and how that impacts the veracity of his story. I doubt the prosecution will deny the fact that an altercation took place. What they will most likely attack is Zimmerman's credibility in his recount of that altercation.

Edit:

What is this obsession with bandages? Clearly, the photo shows injuries that should have been bandaged.

That's an awfully big assumption you made there. And considering that these injuries that supposedly should have been bandaged actually weren't, it's an assumption that flies in the face of the facts.

The prosecution will have to explain the laceration and contusions on the back of Zimmerman's head. There's no way around that.

All the prosecution has to do is stipulate that an altercation did occur and some injuries might have resulted. What the defense will have to explain is why Zimmerman's story is at odds with the facts.

 

[Rare Truth]

What does that mean? GZ could have refused treatment ASA/AMA

Where do you have the EMT report?

Man, it's like some of you never even read the Police report.

 

[RandFan]

DE LA RIONDA: Did he, Mr. Zimmerman, the defendant, at one point claim to the police that he was scared because Mr. Martin started circling his car?

GILBREATH: Yes.

Then stay in your ******* car.

Sometimes the discussion gets a bit abstract and then you see something like this that pulls you back to Earth. I don't know if that is the truth but if it was, WTF. Dude, if you are scared while you are sitting in your car then go the **** home. And I'm not taking GZ to task for being scared. People who are armed and scared ought not be following suspicious people when no crime has been committed.

 

[johnny karate]

Edited by Locknar: 

Moderated content removed.

I sincerely hope that after so recently receiving a yellow card, another personal attack like this one won't result in more serious consequences. Your presence in this thread is like a ray of sunshine, and you would be sorely missed.

 

[johnny karate]

My guess is the EMT report will show a possible fractured/broken nose, and that the EMT's recommended going to the hospital, and GZ declined.

That's great, just as long as you realize you have no evidence to support that guess.

JK - go out on a limb - we all understand you don't know what happened - based on what you do know today - do you believe GZ had a broken nose when he was examined by the EMTs or no ?

No, I don't. I think Zimmerman exaggerated his injuries in an attempt to make the altercation seem worse than it was, and thus bolster his self-defense claim. I know you don't agree, but I think the evidence we've been shown regarding his scalp lacerations is at odds with Zimmerman's narrative. Coupled with how remarkably unscathed and unblemished he appeared in that police surveillance video, and now this bit about not knowing his nose was broken until the next day... I think Zimmerman is lying.

 

[johnny karate]

Zimmerman could well have refused any further treatment after the medics initially cleaned him up and stopped his bleeding.

The wounds could be just starting to bleed again as he is led into the police station. That would explain a number of things.

Such as why there's only a little blood on his head. Maybe the wounds have just started to bleed again.

Such as why the police would put him in the car with his head bleeding. Well, maybe his head wasn't bleeding after the medics treated him.

Come on... really? Do you really find this to be a plausible explanation?

It's funny how after so recently Occam's Razor was used to "prove" Martin was a burglar and a jewel thief, the degree of mental gymnastics being employed to explain the holes in Zimmerman's story.

 

[Freddy]

That's great, just as long as you realize you have no evidence to support that guess.

No, I don't. I think Zimmerman exaggerated his injuries in an attempt to make the altercation seem worse than it was, and thus bolster his self-defense claim. I know you don't agree, but I think the evidence we've been shown regarding his scalp lacerations is at odds with Zimmerman's narrative. Coupled with how remarkably unscathed and unblemished he appeared in that police surveillance video, and now this bit about not knowing his nose was broken until the next day... I think Zimmerman is lying.

I seriously doubt O'Mara would have brought up the medical records at the bond hearing (and made a big deal about Gilbreath's failure to request them) if he didn't think they were favorable to Zimmerman. No, they haven't been made public. But O'Mara has seen them, and we can make educated inferences from his use of them at the bond hearing. Everything I have seen from O'Mara strongly indicates that the guy knows what he's doing, so I'm inclined to trust his judgment as to whether the medical evidence is helpful or harmful to Zimmerman (at least until I can view the medical records for myself).

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That's great, just as long as you realize you have no evidence to support that guess.

No, I don't. I think Zimmerman exaggerated his injuries in an attempt to make the altercation seem worse than it was, and thus bolster his self-defense claim. I know you don't agree, but I think the evidence we've been shown regarding his scalp lacerations is at odds with Zimmerman's narrative. Coupled with how remarkably unscathed and unblemished he appeared in that police surveillance video, and now this bit about not knowing his nose was broken until the next day... I think Zimmerman is lying.

That's fine, I don't intend to continue arguing on and on about it - thanks for answering.

 

[Rare Truth]

That's great, just as long as you realize you have no evidence to support that guess.

No, I don't. I think Zimmerman exaggerated his injuries in an attempt to make the altercation seem worse than it was, and thus bolster his self-defense claim. I know you don't agree, but I think the evidence we've been shown regarding his scalp lacerations is at odds with Zimmerman's narrative. Coupled with how remarkably unscathed and unblemished he appeared in that police surveillance video, and now this bit about not knowing his nose was broken until the next day... I think Zimmerman is lying.

Add to that, the entire time for the EMT's to administer field tests (to check for neck injuries, concussion, contra coup injury, shock, debilitation, etc..) and then treat those lacerations with first aid was on order of only a few minutes.

The timeline proves that.

 

[Rare Truth]

Also, EMT's know they are liable if they clear a potential severe head injury without proper treatment and for sure, Police can't risk the liability and humungous **** storm that would occur if he died while he was under interrogation.
That's why clearing him is essential and needs to be noted in the police report.

And it was.

 

[johnny karate]

Then stay in your ******* car.

Sometimes the discussion gets a bit abstract and then you see something like this that pulls you back to Earth. I don't know if that is the truth but if it was, WTF. Dude, if you are scared while you are sitting in your car then go the **** home. And I'm not taking GZ to task for being scared. People who are armed and scared ought not be following suspicious people when no crime has been committed.

RandFan, I'm afraid this post is against the rules of this thread.

We do not, under any circumstances, question the actions or motivations of George Zimmerman. That he exercised poor judgment by getting out of his car with a gun is immaterial. That this reckless and irresponsible act set the whole chain of events into motion is to be overlooked.

What we need to be focusing on is Trayvon Martin.

Was he casing houses on his way home?

Why was he behaving "weirdly hostile" towards Zimmerman?

Why did he suspiciously run away after Zimmerman sat in his truck innocently watching him?

Why didn't he immediately sprint directly home?

These are the questions we must ask ourselves if we are to ever truly understand what happened that night.

 

[RandFan]

RandFan, I'm afraid this post is against the rules of this thread.

We do not, under any circumstances, question the actions or motivations of George Zimmerman. That he exercised poor judgment by getting out of his car with a gun is immaterial. That this reckless and irresponsible act set the whole chain of events into motion is to be overlooked.

What we need to be focusing on is Trayvon Martin.

Was he casing houses on his way home?

Why was he behaving "weirdly hostile" towards Zimmerman?

Why did he suspiciously run away after Zimmerman sat in his truck innocently watching him?

Why didn't he immediately sprint directly home?

These are the questions we must ask ourselves if we are to ever truly understand what happened that night.

You are right. My bad.

 

[Giz]

Then stay in your ******* car.

Sometimes the discussion gets a bit abstract and then you see something like this that pulls you back to Earth. I don't know if that is the truth but if it was, WTF. Dude, if you are scared while you are sitting in your car then go the **** home. And I'm not taking GZ to task for being scared. People who are armed and scared ought not be following suspicious people when no crime has been committed.

That does sound prudent and sensible advice.

Viewed from another perspective though, it's rather like saying: concerned neighbors who decide to try and keep a suspicious character in view so that they can point the cops in the right direction are culpable for any violent/criminal reaction from the 'suspect'. Therefore they should be encouraged to huddle indoors and fear their neighborhood streets.

Key points of GZ's behavior are - what distance was GZ following (re: how imprudent he was). And did he ever attempt to confront/restrain/etc (re: did he initiate hostilities).

 

[johnny karate]

I seriously doubt O'Mara would have brought up the medical records at the bond hearing (and made a big deal about Gilbreath's failure to request them) if he didn't think they were favorable to Zimmerman. No, they haven't been made public. But O'Mara has seen them, and we can make educated inferences from his use of them at the bond hearing. Everything I have seen from O'Mara strongly indicates that the guy knows what he's doing, so I'm inclined to trust his judgment as to whether the medical evidence is helpful or harmful to Zimmerman (at least until I can view the medical records for myself).

I think what's more important is to look at how and why the medical records were introduced. O'Mara is definitely a savvy lawyer, and if the Facebook page he set up and his interactions with the press are any indication, he knows he's not just trying this case in court, but also in the public eye.

The end result of his cross-examination with Gilbreath on this issue is that now we know Zimmerman broke his nose. That fact is in the public record. That's a point scored for Zimmerman.

If it so happens that several months from now it is revealed those medical records are from the next day, and the prosecution uses that as leverage to argue inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story, it doesn't really cost O'Mara or Zimmerman anything. He can still argue that Zimmerman broke his nose as a result of the altercation, it's just that now his argument might not be as strong as it initially appeared.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

That does sound prudent and sensible advice.

Viewed from another perspective though, it's rather like saying: concerned neighbors who decide to try and keep a suspicious character in view so that they can point the cops in the right direction are culpable for any violent/criminal reaction from the 'suspect'. Therefore they should be encouraged to huddle indoors and fear their neighborhood streets.

Key points of GZ's behavior are - what distance was GZ following (re: how imprudent he was). And did he ever attempt to confront/restrain/etc (re: did he initiate hostilities).

Where do you think you get off trying to bring this type of sensibility to the discussion? GZ followed TM like a salivating barking hound. We know that from our psychic powers. There couldn't possibly be any side to the story other than that.

And yes, the bold part is what's highly relevant.

 

[Noztradamus]

We don't know where Zimmerman was parked on Twin Views Lane, actually. We can narrow it down, but we can't say that he wouldn't have line-of-sight to Retreat View Circle. And frankly, Zimmerman's thinking is pretty jumbled anyway - as one example, his seemingly baseless assertion that Martin was "up to no good, or on drugs", so I'm not sure we should take his word very far in any case.

Zimmeraman says the cops will have to make a turn on Twin Trees Lane in order so see his truck. For that to be the case, his view of Retreat View Circle will be obstructed by housing blocks or the clubhouse

 

[Freddy]

I think what's more important is to look at how and why the medical records were introduced. O'Mara is definitely a savvy lawyer, and if the Facebook page he set up and his interactions with the press are any indication, he knows he's not just trying this case in court, but also in the public eye.

The end result of his cross-examination with Gilbreath on this issue is that now we know Zimmerman broke his nose. That fact is in the public record. That's a point scored for Zimmerman.

If it so happens that several months from now it is revealed those medical records are from the next day, and the prosecution uses that as leverage to argue inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story, it doens't really cost O'Mara or Zimmerman anything. He can still argue that Zimmerman broke his nose as a result of the altercation, it's just that now his argument might not be as strong as it inititially appeared.

I thought it was already known the medical records were from the next day. I don't see how that really makes much of a difference, though. It isn't uncommon for someone to initially refuse medical treatment and then realize the next day that their injuries are worse than they thought. And any alleged exaggeration of the injuries will be relevant only to Zimmerman's credibility, since actual injuries are not required in a self-defense claim. I think that only a glaring inconsistency would be enough to really sway a jury with respect to exaggerating the injuries. Nit picking over the details won't get the prosecution anywhere, and may be counter-productive. So if it's something arguable, I don't think it'll matter much at trial. What will matter is whether Zimmerman was really losing the fight, and if so how badly. If Zimmerman is being untruthful about that, then reasonable fear seems unlikely. Whether Zimmerman started the fight might also matter, because that would impose additional duties on Zimmerman before use of self defense would be legal.

Also, the doctors who saw Zimmerman have no incentive to exaggerate the seriousness of his injuries, so if Zimmerman has been exaggerating then the medical records should reflect that his injuries were not significant.

As for the cause of the broken nose, I don't see how it wasn't suffered during the altercation. If the prosecutor tries to imply that Zimmerman purposely broke his own nose later in order to exaggerate his injuries, then she should be fired for incompetence. That sort of eye-roll inducing claim will destroy a lawyer's credibility with jury. And once the jury decides you're full of it, even a very strong case becomes lose-able.