Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Rare Truth]

The police don't just send one car to see if this might be the victim's father.

They are already sure who the victim is, imo. That's why they send a bunch of people and a chaplain.

This is before 8am the next day. So, they found out that night.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

And how did you figure they deduced this?

Are you suggesting he had identification, so that by the time he was shipped off to the Medical Examiner, approx. 8PM, they knew who he was?

If not that, how?

 

[boooeee]

I'm sure this has been posted already, but does anybody have the timeline for the following three events:

1. Zimmerman's call to the police. When the call started and when it stopped.
2. Trayvon's call to his girlfriend. When it started and when it stopped.
3. The 911 call with the screams for help and the gunshot. When it started and when it stopped (and when the screams and gunshot took place).

An external link is fine too.

 

[WildCat]

I have observed enough people with broken noses to see that

1. Most of the time they bleed a lot. Not always though, true.
2. Nearly always they hold their head back and/ or express quite a bit of contortions to
to the face / display extreme discomfort.

I note - some 35 minutes after the incident, and after just a couple of minutes of treatment by an EMT in the back of a squad car, nary a bandage is seen nor in the entire 6 plus minutes of watching Zimmerman get searched, walk down hallways of the SPD do we see any - NONE - of the signs of an injured man, and nothing to suggest he was experiencing that great discomfort associated with a broken nose.

Is it your contention that any medical records produced by Zimmerman will be the resuilt of a conspiracy between Zimmerman, his defense team, and the hospital and medical staff that treated Zimmerman?

And how did you figure they deduced this?

Are you suggesting he had identification, so that by the time he was shipped off to the Medical Examiner, approx. 8PM, they knew who he was?

If not that, how?

They figured it out when Martin was reported missing.

 

[Rare Truth]

The evidence you asked for was exactly what O'Mara was querying Gilbreath about and in the video which you transcribed O'Mara is literally holding the medical file. We dont have access to it yet but at a later date we will. So I ask again, what date do you think will be on those records?

A defense attorney is not a police official. They are the furthest thing from that.

So what will you consider it to mean if it turns out the medical report says what O'Mara said it did?

If it holds up to scrutiny, I'll admit I was wrong. It just seems strange to me that it was only the known liars that were his first 'attorneys' that noted the broken nose, some 4 weeks later.

Gilbreath didn't even know that the Sanford police had TM's father do a voice ID test for the screams in the 911 call and the father didn't think it was TM. Gilbreath was so bizarrely uninformed in general it's a mistake IMO to hope for some hidden information in his apparent ignorance.

Those reports were wrong. The father said initally when he first heard the 911 calls, he could not tell they were of his son, becasue they were too distorted. Not long after, he heard a cleaned up version, and determined with certainty they were his son. The mother also states with certainty.

I would not take Gilbreath's coyness to share information in a unplanned, highly unusual witness stand episode during a bond hearing as being as oafish as you portend. He was only one of the investigators, and what was shared with him may have only been portions of the investigation.

His reputation precedes him as being a very capable investigator. In fact, he spent 32 years as a homicide detective.

"He's the crime scene guru," said Sgt. Jim Parker, once Gilbreath's partner and now his boss on the homicide cold case unit of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office.
Now Gilbreath is getting ready to take that knowledge, acquired during 32 years as a cop, into retirement.
Though he is only 54, Gilbreath said he's ready for a life of leisure, not a second career.
"I'm an expert on blood spatter," he said. "That's not a skill you can really market."
"I don't know how they'll replace him," said T.C. O'Steen, a former partner who now works for the State Attorney's Office. "He's a great investigator. He's a great interviewer. If he handled a crime scene, it was handled right."

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/031208/met_256046332.shtml

The above article is from 2008. Looks like he was about to retire then. Guess he decided not to, or his skills were greatly needed. Either way, the "crime scene guru" does not appear to be any slouch.

 

[a_unique_person]

To keep him in sight, then he loses him. Since TM is almost home at that point it would seem assured that he must have doubled back to re-encounter GZ. Why do you suppose he did that?

Do I answer hypothetical questions?

 

[Rare Truth]

Is it your contention that any medical records produced by Zimmerman will be the resuilt of a conspiracy between Zimmerman, his defense team, and the hospital and medical staff that treated Zimmerman?

I'm not big on conspiracies.
I'm big on logic.
I have not seen any hospital records, nor have you. At this point, there is no proof he ever went to the hospital the next day.

We do know he spent a portion of that next morning reenacting the event at the crime scene. That was supposedly videotaped. It will be interesting to see where the 'hospital visit' fit into that morning. If records transpire, and are not one of the the many inconsistencies noted by Zimmerman, then that will be that.

They figured it out when Martin was reported missing.

The post I responded to stated the police knew the night before. Pay attention.

 

[lane99]

Six of one...

Whether the nose was broken or just bloodied ultimately won't be pivotal, imo. Certainly I think the exact nature and extent of the injuries to the back of his head will be more relevant.

At any rate, I anticipate the prosecution will be able to present medical testimony that none of the injuries the shooter actually sustained were life-threatening.

 

[lane99]

Quirk of Florida law, perhaps?

...One of the reasons O'Mara put Zimmerman on the stand at the bond hearing was it was a free chance for Zimmerman to appeal to the media without comprimising his right to self-incrimination - since this testimony cannot be used at trial.

Why is his bail hearing testimony precluded from the trial? Generally such testimony is not necessarily inadmissible. And I think the prosecution will want to refer to it.

 

[Rare Truth]

Whether the nose was broken or just bloodied ultimately won't be pivotal, imo. Certainly I think the exact nature and extent of the injuries to the back of his head will be more relevant.

At any rate, I anticipate the prosecution will be able to present medical testimony that none of the injuries the shooter actually sustained were life-threatening.

I can agree with that. It is not pivotal.

What might appear to be a fixation on that for me is more a frustration that people are stating the "broken" nose as fact now. As far as I'm concerned, the strange way the injuries evolved (helped by Z's previous lawyers, his father, and his reeeedickulous 'one punch away from a life in diapers' brother) are more a matter of fascination for me.

I've been deeply involved in this story for well over 6 weeks now, and done quite a bit of investigating into the many anomalies and inconsistencies.

I'll also add the injuries do not necessarily have to BE life threatening for a legit self-defense claim. Just much of what I see here does not add up.

I, like many others, are waiting for a punchy and revealing document dump. We may be waiting a while though...

 

[Dancing David]

TM's motives/emotions may always be a mystery but there is a lot of evidence about his physical actions.

There is evidence that TM reacted weirdly hostile to GZ when GZ was on the phone in the truck to the point of approaching GZ's vehicle.

No there is an unsubstantiated third hand report.

 

[Rare Truth]

Why is his bail hearing testimony precluded from the trial? Generally such testimony is not necessarily inadmissible. And I think the prosecution will want to refer to it.

From my understanding of this ruling: PETER ROUSSONICOLOS, v. STATE OF FLORIDA
it very well could be admissible. Yes, there are some strict stipulations, but it is possible.

 

[Dancing David]

It's a strange notation, to me anyways.

Bloody is not broken. I would think a medical report would note that.

A medical report that wasn't released. Why should that have been in any news story?

I would think Chief Lee would have used that term, if indeed it was broken. It's much more significant and ultimately compelling than "bloody."

Because you say so? That is not much of a reason.

Yet, there is no mention of it by the Police.

You know we went over this a while back, a medical report by the EMTs and ER staff is not a police report, now is it?

I'll note also - to those who point to the police report released - the date that was printed was March 6th. It was also unsigned. For those who say the report was not amended from the night of the incident, which notes Report Date Completed: Feb 27, 3:07AM - Should also consider this: There is no way that was the finished product of that night.

Know how we know that? The victim's name is noted. Police did not have that information at 3:07AM on Feb 27th.

Maybe you should read the thread, this is covered in many places.

 

[Dancing David]

The police would not report anything other than what they observed. They would not report that GZ's nose was broken. They would not know if it was broken.

Ta daaaaaaaa

 

[Mumbles]

No there is an unsubstantiated third hand report.

I have to admit, I'm amused by the idea that the guy calling the cops on, swearing, and chasing smoke person who was walking down the street is okay, but walking towards a car is "weirdly hostile".

 

[Mumbles]

Zimmerman (already parked) opens his call by saying Martin is, or has been, on Retreat View Circle, but from where Zimmerman is parked on Twin Trees Lane he can't see Retreat View Circle. So he must have turned off Retreat View Circle, abandoning his trip to Target for some reason. Logic suggests that reason was that he was following Martin.

We don't know where Zimmerman was parked on Twin Views Lane, actually. We can narrow it down, but we can't say that he wouldn't have line-of-sight to Retreat View Circle. And frankly, Zimmerman's thinking is pretty jumbled anyway - as one example, his seemingly baseless assertion that Martin was "up to no good, or on drugs", so I'm not sure we should take his word very far in any case.

 

[curi0us]

A defense attorney is not a police official. They are the furthest thing from that.

It's not what his attorney is saying, it's the medical report he is holding and talking about. It doesn't get any more official then that for injury evaluation, the police need to defer to someone else for that because they don't have requisite training to make a diagnosis.

If it holds up to scrutiny, I'll admit I was wrong. It just seems strange to me that it was only the known liars that were his first 'attorneys' that noted the broken nose, some 4 weeks later.

I have a very negative view of GZ's original attorneys as well so I can understand you not trusting them.

Those reports were wrong. The father said initally when he first heard the 911 calls, he could not tell they were of his son, becasue they were too distorted. Not long after, he heard a cleaned up version, and determined with certainty they were his son.

1)The "too distorted" claim is bogus, there is no magic audio cleaning trick to make it possible for TM's father to go from not thinking it was his son to determining with "certainty" it was his son. The first voice ID test for the father is the one that counts the most by far. Any claim of his to later hear the same audio and know it was his son with certainty reeks of bias that has nothing to with what he was actually hearing.

2)You must have missed it but Gilbreath doesn't even know about the father doing any voice ID testing at all:

O'MARA: How about the dad's ability to identify whether or not that was Trayvon's voice?

GILBREATH: No.

O'MARA: You're not aware of any inquiries made to Trayvon's dad as to whether or not he could identify that voice as being his son's?

GILBREATH: No.

O'MARA: Nothing further, your honor.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

3)Besides TM's father original non-ID there is TM's brother who said in an early interview that he wasn't sure if the voice was Tm. Meanwhile there has been an unequivocal eyewitness that said since the beginning that it was Zimmerman screaming for help. Plus Zimmerman told police right away he was yelling for help, plus Zimmerman has injuries that would match moments of pain that can be heard in the audio. (So far we haven't heard anything about TM having been injured prior to being shot.)

The mother also states with certainty.

Who do yo think is more trustworthy, a neutral eyewitness or TM's mother that didn't hear the audio till she was already convinced it was going to be TM yelling for help?

I would not take Gilbreath's coyness to share information in a unplanned, highly unusual witness stand episode during a bond hearing as being as oafish as you portend. He was only one of the investigators, and what was shared with him may have only been portions of the investigation.

Gilbreath would have been better informed about the case if just read this JREF thread, and I don't mean that as a compliment towards the JREF.

His reputation precedes him as being a very capable investigator. In fact, he spent 32 years as a homicide detective.

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/031208/met_256046332.shtml

The above article is from 2008. Looks like he was about to retire then. Guess he decided not to, or his skills were greatly needed. Either way, the "crime scene guru" does not appear to be any slouch.

I have no prior knowledge of Gilbreath but IMO he came off incredibly poorly. Perhaps he usually is very good and this time he succumbed to overconfidence or groupthink.

 

[crimresearch]

It's a strange notation, to me anyways.

Bloody is not broken. I would think a medical report would note that. I would think Chief Lee would have used that term, if indeed it was broken. It's much more significant and ultimately compelling than "bloody."

Yet, there is no mention of it by the Police.

I'll note also - to those who point to the police report released - the date that was printed was March 6th. It was also unsigned. For those who say the report was not amended from the night of the incident, which notes Report Date Completed: Feb 27, 3:07AM - Should also consider this: There is no way that was the finished product of that night.

Know how we know that? The victim's name is noted. Police did not have that information at 3:07AM on Feb 27th.

Another item that I must have missed. When did it develop that the police didn't have Trayvon Martin's name, from either a wallet, a school ID, or a phone?

I remember a discussion as to why they wouldn't have gotten in touch with someone related to him sooner, but when did they actually develop an ID?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm sure this has been posted already, but does anybody have the timeline for the following three events:

1. Zimmerman's call to the police. When the call started and when it stopped.
2. Trayvon's call to his girlfriend. When it started and when it stopped.
3. The 911 call with the screams for help and the gunshot. When it started and when it stopped (and when the screams and gunshot took place).

An external link is fine too.

should all be here I think:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8141222&highlight=timeline#post8141222

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Another item that I must have missed. When did it develop that the police didn't have Trayvon Martin's name, from either a wallet, a school ID, or a phone?

I remember a discussion as to why they wouldn't have gotten in touch with someone related to him sooner, but when did they actually develop an ID?

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/...hood-watch-20120319,0,7016674.story?track=rss
The teen, who was walking back from a store, was carrying only a cellphone, a bag of Skittles candy and an iced tea, authorities say.

Although I don't believe it was ever stated, it appears the phone was locked, otherwise they could have just looked at the call history.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Zimmerman (already parked) opens his call by saying Martin is, or has been, on Retreat View Circle, but from where Zimmerman is parked on Twin Trees Lane he can't see Retreat View Circle. So he must have turned off Retreat View Circle, abandoning his trip to Target for some reason. Logic suggests that reason was that he was following Martin.

Damn you and your silly logic