Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Rare Truth]

If they don't exist, it doesn't mean George's nose wasn't broken.

I think there's a turn of phrase for that sort of argument.

It's a strange notation, to me anyways.

Bloody is not broken. I would think a medical report would note that. I would think Chief Lee would have used that term, if indeed it was broken. It's much more significant and ultimately compelling than "bloody."

Yet, there is no mention of it by the Police.

I'll note also - to those who point to the police report released - the date that was printed was March 6th. It was also unsigned. For those who say the report was not amended from the night of the incident, which notes Report Date Completed: Feb 27, 3:07AM - Should also consider this: There is no way that was the finished product of that night.

Know how we know that? The victim's name is noted. Police did not have that information at 3:07AM on Feb 27th.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This makes no sense. How would Trayvon know, ahead of time, that Zimmerman would get out of his car to pursue him?

No, he didn't. So why didn't he run himself on home ??

And why on earth would he continue to talk to people on the phone while hiding?.

You're right, he wasn't hiding ! And he didn't go home. he was ....

 

[curi0us]

Pony up, big boy.

I'll admit I was wrong if you can find a record of someone in official capacity stating Zimmerman had a broken nose before then.

I'm waiting with baited...

I am little tempted to draw this out but I'll instead just keep it simple:

What do you think the date will be on GZ's medical record indicating his injuries?

O'MARA: Ok. Have you ever had your nose broken?

GILBREATH: No.

O'MARA: Have you ever had your nose fractured or broken.

GILBREATH: No.

O'MARA: You know that that was an injury that Mr. Zimmerman sustained, correct?

GILBREATH: I know that that is an injury that is reported to have sustained. I haven't seen any medical records to indicate that.

O'MARA: Have you asked him for them?

GILBREATH: Have I asked him for them? No.

O'MARA: Do you want a copy of them?

GILBREATH: Sure.

O'MARA: I'll give them to the state. It's a more appropriate way to do it. If you haven't had them yet, I don't want to cross you on them.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Why would the Sentinel story of March 8th, where it is noted clearly they had seen the incident report note the part of only the grass? The BLOODY part is NOT THERE.

Why would they start the story:

He saw the teen and called police. Two minutes later, 17-year-old Trayvon was on the ground, dying from a single gunshot wound. Police found Zimmerman standing nearby, a gun in his waistband and blood seeping from injuries to his nose and the back of his head.
If they didn't know about his bloody nose and back of the head ?

Pretty damn important information to leave out.

It's right there ?

No, the police are not EMT's, but they also HAVE the EMT report as part of their investigation, know full well Zimmerman's treatment last literally a few minutes in the back of a squad car -- and also do not note since that time - a week - no "broken nose" medical records exist, or have been presented by Zimmerman after.

Until he was charged - why would he 'present' the police with anything ?
And apparently medical records do exist. Gilbreath admitted he had heard about GZ claiming to have a broken nose, but had never asked for any records from him. So O'mara then presented them to the state.

The police at any time between the incident and March 23 could have reported this, as it would certainly bolster Police Chief Lee's case, especially as the intensity was growing and he was fighting back on his decision to not submit a warrant for his arrest, yet he makes not one mention of this supposed "broken nose." None.

I for one am glad the police didn't feel free to quote from his private medical records in news conferences.

Awfully strange, if you ask me.

Nothing strange here at all, IMHO.

 

[Rare Truth]

I am little tempted to draw this out but I'll instead just keep it simple:

What do you think the date will be on GZ's medical record indicating his injuries?


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

I'm quite familiar with the Bond hearing.

In fact, I even transcribed and published here the part of it when CNN cut to commercial when no one else had that portion of it transcribed. LINK

That does not provide the evidence I have asked for, does it?

I am here to tell you there is NO RECORD of police stating he had a broken nose. Bloody is all you can find. That report held up by the defense attorney is a rather curious part of the hearing, and I submit, a bit of drama.

It will reveal a lot, if we ever get to see it.

It also speaks to one of the first questions I asked here on this thread two weeks ago: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8221425&postcount=7378

A snippet of that:

"O'Mara then tells him he will provide them to the state. Wouldn't these records (likely from after the incident, by a doctor the next day (?)) - Wouldn't the state already have this, as part of the original case handed to them? Would there be a reason that information would *not* be there?

It's just something that's bugging me about the way that exchange was handled, and the off hand way Gilbreath seems to dismiss the nose injury."

 

[Rare Truth]

Why would they start the story:

He saw the teen and called police. Two minutes later, 17-year-old Trayvon was on the ground, dying from a single gunshot wound. Police found Zimmerman standing nearby, a gun in his waistband and blood seeping from injuries to his nose and the back of his head.
If they didn't know about his bloody nose and back of the head ?


It's right there ?

Alright. I will admit to a mea culpa there.

I missed that in the March 8th article. Still, it notes bloody.

I will give you credit for noting my oversight. (and a glaring one at that.) One point.

Until he was charged - why would he 'present' the police with anything ?
And apparently medical records do exist. Gilbreath admitted he had heard about GZ claiming to have a broken nose, but had never asked for any records from him. So O'mara then presented them to the state.

I for one am glad the police didn't feel free to quote from his private medical records in news conferences.

Nothing strange here at all, IMHO.

The investigation was ongoing, so we are told. I would think if they can note bloody, they can also note broken. The EMT report will be the first thing I want to read. I would hope that is part of discovery.
Certainly the investigators have seen that.
They have also viewed the hours of videotape of Zimmerman that night.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Alright. I will admit to a mea culpa there.

I missed that in the March 8th article. Still, it notes bloody.

I will give you credit for noting my oversight. (and a glaring one at that.) One point.

I'll take it where I can get it.

 

[crimresearch]

Not emotionally charged enough.

True.

How about 'the HIPAAcrit's fallacy'?

 

[Kaosium]

Okay.

I'm just curious to know why that was deemed relevant, but the revelation of Zimmerman's thuggish tendencies via his MySpace page ("I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he's at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched") isn't.

Frankly all I derived from that Myspace page is a headache.

The difference between the two would be that one is a report of violence and the other is what a man with hispanic heritage might do in the event his sister was threatened. One did not happen for certain, the other may have happened. If it didn't, then it goes in the same category as George Zimmerman's: young males blustering. Perhaps you've noticed they do that from time to time!

Incidentally, when speculating or attempting to ascertain the likelihood of an event, especially one involving human beings, here are some tools one can employ in order to do that. Hint: you have to remember there's very little in the way of absolutes regarding human behavior, (though some like to think they have it all figured out, Please! The universe ends and we all win if that happens! ) sometimes you've got to put them together, and there's techniques amongst the links. You might also note that there's some overlap, there's a reason for that...

Computers are digital, but human beings are analog...

 

[LTC8K6]

It's a strange notation, to me anyways.

Bloody is not broken. I would think a medical report would note that. I would think Chief Lee would have used that term, if indeed it was broken. It's much more significant and ultimately compelling than "bloody."

Yet, there is no mention of it by the Police.

I'll note also - to those who point to the police report released - the date that was printed was March 6th. It was also unsigned. For those who say the report was not amended from the night of the incident, which notes Report Date Completed: Feb 27, 3:07AM - Should also consider this: There is no way that was the finished product of that night.

Know how we know that? The victim's name is noted. Police did not have that information at 3:07AM on Feb 27th.

The police would not report anything other than what they observed. They would not report that GZ's nose was broken. They would not know if it was broken.

Even SFD would likely not be sure if the nose was broken.

I broke my nose playing baseball as a boy. All anyone can see is a bloody nose. You don't know it's broken until you get a picture of it.

No one is going to grab it and wiggle it to see if it's fully broken, or just cracked.

 

[curi0us]

It's a strange notation, to me anyways.

Bloody is not broken. I would think a medical report would note that. I would think Chief Lee would have used that term, if indeed it was broken. It's much more significant and ultimately compelling than "bloody."

Yet, there is no mention of it by the Police.

I'll note also - to those who point to the police report released - the date that was printed was March 6th. It was also unsigned. For those who say the report was not amended from the night of the incident, which notes Report Date Completed: Feb 27, 3:07AM - Should also consider this: There is no way that was the finished product of that night.

Know how we know that? The victim's name is noted. Police did not have that information at 3:07AM on Feb 27th.

There are different times in the report for different sections. The two police officers at the scene have different specific report dates of 3:29AM 2/27 for Officer Smith and 2:28AM 2/27 for Officer Ayala. The term that you focused upon "Time Completed" ls next to "Time Dispatched" and "Time Arrived" and I believe not intended as an indication of when the report itself was "completed".

The issue for your skepticism is specific to Officer Smith, do you think his report which is dated at 3:29AM 2/27 was dishonest? Do you think he later changed it to make it more favorable to GZ?

 

[LTC8K6]

The police went to the house early the next morning, so sometime that night they had figured out the identity. They arrive at Martin's house to give him the news before 8am on the 27th.

The police wouldn't have known yet to go to that house. They knew that when Tracy Martin called them.

So, they already knew that night that it was Trayvon Martin, they just didn't know to go to that house.

 

[Kaosium]

I'm quite familiar with the Bond hearing.

In fact, I even transcribed and published here the part of it when CNN cut to commercial when no one else had that portion of it transcribed. LINK

That does not provide the evidence I have asked for, does it?

I am here to tell you there is NO RECORD of police stating he had a broken nose. Bloody is all you can find. That report held up by the defense attorney is a rather curious part of the hearing, and I submit, a bit of drama.

It will reveal a lot, if we ever get to see it.

It also speaks to one of the first questions I asked here on this thread two weeks ago: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8221425&postcount=7378

A snippet of that:

"O'Mara then tells him he will provide them to the state. Wouldn't these records (likely from after the incident, by a doctor the next day (?)) - Wouldn't the state already have this, as part of the original case handed to them? Would there be a reason that information would *not* be there?

It's just something that's bugging me about the way that exchange was handled, and the off hand way Gilbreath seems to dismiss the nose injury."

Let us see, we have the fact George Zimmerman was hit on the nose, that the police found the evidence and witnesses matched his story, his first lawyer asserted it, his second lawyer did as well, and the fact everyone knows the evidence will be shown in court at some juncture so they're all gonna look damn silly and some might be in big trouble if he doesn't.

Contrary to that is the fact some people saw a picture and they dismissed all those other indicators on the basis they figured they knew what all broken noses looked like. Gee, where have I seen this technique employed before?

 

[LTC8K6]

This makes no sense. How would Trayvon know, ahead of time, that Zimmerman would get out of his car to pursue him? And why on earth would he continue to talk to people on the phone while hiding? Martin has a far more obvious reason to get away from Zimmerman, that being to get say from the strange man who was staring at him.

He didn't know for sure, but GZ was already "pursuing" him in the truck.

It's logical that if you get away from the road, GZ would have to come after you on foot if he's going to follow you any further.

There are gaps in the phone calls.

 

[LTC8K6]

Instead of one squad car with his son in the backseat, three vehicles pulled up: a police cruiser, an unmarked sedan and another official-looking car. Martin would discover the third car belonged to a chaplain.

It was not yet 8 in the morning, barely 12 hours since the shooting that took place about 100 yards away, and Martin was still unaware of the fate of his son.

The police don't just send one car to see if this might be the victim's father.

They are already sure who the victim is, imo. That's why they send a bunch of people and a chaplain.

This is before 8am the next day. So, they found out that night.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

 

[Mumbles]

He didn't know for sure, but GZ was already "pursuing" him in the truck.

It's logical that if you get away from the road, GZ would have to come after you on foot if he's going to follow you any further.

There are gaps in the phone calls.

So, basically, the argument is that Martin already knew that Zimmerman was extremely aggressive, based on his behavior.

In that case, I can't fault him for hiding. Although, I do have to note that Zimmerman's police call seems to place him observing from the side of the road, and not following anyone in his car.

 

[johnny karate]

The difference between the two would be that one is a report of violence and the other is what a man with hispanic heritage might do in the event his sister was threatened.

That's one way to put it. Another way is to say that one is a Youtube video of a fight that didn't directly involve the person in question, and the other is an admission to criminal and/or violent behavior from someone with a history of criminal and violent behavior.

One did not happen for certain, the other may have happened.

Right. Just like Zimmerman assaulting a police office happened for certain, while Martin burglarizing a home may have happened.

Incidentally, when speculating or attempting to ascertain the likelihood of an event, especially one involving human beings, here are some tools one can employ in order to do that. Hint: you have to remember there's very little in the way of absolutes regarding human behavior, (though some like to think they have it all figured out, Please! The universe ends and we all win if that happens! ) sometimes you've got to put them together, and there's techniques amongst the links. You might also note that there's some overlap, there's a reason for that...

Computers are digital, but human beings are analog...

So in what specific way did you employ these tools to support the argument you made that since Martin is a suspected burglar, he might have been casing houses on his way home from the store?

 

[Noztradamus]

So, basically, the argument is that Martin already knew that Zimmerman was extremely aggressive, based on his behavior.

In that case, I can't fault him for hiding. Although, I do have to note that Zimmerman's police call seems to place him observing from the side of the road, and not following anyone in his car.

Zimmerman (already parked) opens his call by saying Martin is, or has been, on Retreat View Circle, but from where Zimmerman is parked on Twin Trees Lane he can't see Retreat View Circle. So he must have turned off Retreat View Circle, abandoning his trip to Target for some reason. Logic suggests that reason was that he was following Martin.

 

[curi0us]

I'm quite familiar with the Bond hearing.

In fact, I even transcribed and published here the part of it when CNN cut to commercial when no one else had that portion of it transcribed. LINK

That does not provide the evidence I have asked for, does it?

The evidence you asked for was exactly what O'Mara was querying Gilbreath about and in the video which you transcribed O'Mara is literally holding the medical file. We dont have access to it yet but at a later date we will. So I ask again, what date do you think will be on those records?

I am here to tell you there is NO RECORD of police stating he had a broken nose.

So?

The police are not medical experts in any way. The EMT's are better but an actual doctor has far more expertise and also functions in an environment more suited to proper diagnosis. GZ's medical report is the most official document we will have about his injuries by far.

Bloody is all you can find.

Just a couple of hours ago you thought the stories about GZ bleeding were after the fact concoctions because you couldn't find blood mentioned in early reports. Doesn't that prove that the media is not reliable in this case and that some details that didn't make into the press in a timely manner may still be true?

That report held up by the defense attorney is a rather curious part of the hearing, and I submit, a bit of drama.

It will reveal a lot, if we ever get to see it.

So what will you consider it to mean if it turns out the medical report says what O'Mara said it did?

It also speaks to one of the first questions I asked here on this thread two weeks ago: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8221425&postcount=7378

A snippet of that:

"O'Mara then tells him he will provide them to the state. Wouldn't these records (likely from after the incident, by a doctor the next day (?)) - Wouldn't the state already have this, as part of the original case handed to them? Would there be a reason that information would *not* be there?

It's just something that's bugging me about the way that exchange was handled, and the off hand way Gilbreath seems to dismiss the nose injury."

Gilbreath didn't even know that the Sanford police had TM's father do a voice ID test for the screams in the 911 call and the father didn't think it was TM. Gilbreath was so bizarrely uninformed in general it's a mistake IMO to hope for some hidden information in his apparent ignorance.

 

[Rare Truth]

The police would not report anything other than what they observed. They would not report that GZ's nose was broken. They would not know if it was broken.

Even SFD would likely not be sure if the nose was broken.

I broke my nose playing baseball as a boy. All anyone can see is a bloody nose. You don't know it's broken until you get a picture of it.

No one is going to grab it and wiggle it to see if it's fully broken, or just cracked.

I have observed enough people with broken noses to see that

1. Most of the time they bleed a lot. Not always though, true.
2. Nearly always they hold their head back and/ or express quite a bit of contortions to
to the face / display extreme discomfort.

I note - some 35 minutes after the incident, and after just a couple of minutes of treatment by an EMT in the back of a squad car, nary a bandage is seen nor in the entire 6 plus minutes of watching Zimmerman get searched, walk down hallways of the SPD do we see any - NONE - of the signs of an injured man, and nothing to suggest he was experiencing that great discomfort associated with a broken nose.