Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[TheL8Elvis]

That's assuming a lot about what for sure means.

So, you don't think his nose has been broken, for sure ? You have doubt about the fact his nose was broken ? Really ?

Where did I say any of that?

You didn't say that, you implied it - when you answered the question 'are we sure GZ nose was broken' with the answer 'no'

The amount of information you are inferring from the word "No" is astonishing.

Seriously, how is that astonishing ? You stated you are not sure his nose is broken. If you are not sure, that implies you have some doubt - otherwise you would be sure, yes ?

I think Zimmerman's nose was broken.

But you are not sure. So it's really more like just your opinion than a fact.

Are you satisfied?

Not really.

 

[LTC8K6]

And yet the Youtube video you provided a link to didn't address any specific claim, it only served to somehow associate Martin with fighting.

How is that any more relevant than demonstrating Zimmerman's violent and/or criminal tendencies via his MySpace page?

Well, one was many years ago...but hey, once again, don't over analyze this.

Fighting at school, three suspensions...

Perhaps there is a connection? The explanation for one of the suspensions was that TM was where he wasn't supposed to be, iirc. Was he at a fight at school, like in the video?

I don't know. TM's history has been erased.

 

[johnny karate]

You didn't say that, you implied it - when you answered the question 'are we sure GZ nose was broken' with the answer 'no'

Actually, the question was:

Have we found out for sure yet that his nose was broken?

Which I read to mean "Has the documentation been released yet?".

That you blatantly misquoted that question tells me you're more interested in tarring and feathering than honest discussion.

 

[johnny karate]

Well, one was many years ago...but hey, once again, don't over analyze this.

Right. Because clearly over-analyzing should be solely reserved for Martin's past:

Fighting at school, three suspensions...

Perhaps there is a connection? The explanation for one of the suspensions was that TM was where he wasn't supposed to be, iirc. Was he at a fight at school, like in the video?

I don't know. TM's history has been erased.

For all we know, Trayvon Martin was history's greatest monster.

 

[LTC8K6]

Right. Because clearly over-analyzing should be solely reserved for Martin's past:


For all we know, Trayvon Martin was history's greatest monster.

Well, not the greatest...

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You didn't say that, you implied it - when you answered the question 'are we sure GZ nose was broken' with the answer 'no'

Actually, the question was:

Have we found out for sure yet that his nose was broken?​

Which I read to mean "Has the documentation been released yet?".

That you blatantly misquoted that question tells me you're more interested in tarring and feathering than honest discussion.

are we sure GZ nose was broken
is pretty much the same question as:
Have we found out for sure yet that his nose was broken?



I wasn't trying to 'tar and feather' anyone.

I am trying to understand why you would claim we don't know something for sure that I think we obviously do. At least as 'for sure' as many other things we 'know' about the case.

 

[Rare Truth]

The question was "Have we found out for sure yet that his nose was broken?".

We haven't.

That doesn't mean his nose wasn't broken, nor does it mean there isn't evidence that his nose was broken. It simply means that we haven't found for sure if his nose was indeed broken.

Isn't it interesting that as late as three weeks after the incident, there is no reference by the police of a broken nose.

Bloody is all that is noted. I've searched to find anything from those early reports for mention of the term "broken" from the officials regarding his nose, and have come up empty.

In fact, in an early report by the Sentinel (March 8th) there is no mention of the even the blood (the family contends that notation was added later) -- but you can see here, only the grass is noted:

When police arrived, an officer overheard Zimmerman complain, "'I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me,'" according to an incident report released Thursday. It also noted that, the back of Zimmerman's shirt was wet and had grass clippings on it, as if he'd been on his back on the ground.
On one recorded 911 call, the police chief said, "You can hear the struggle and the gunshot."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...g-police-headquarters-investigation-next-week

It quotes that line Zimmerman made about yelling for help, "...but no one would help me" -- but no mention of blood. The Sentinel notes they were going by the incident report. One would think the blood part would have been noted. Pretty glaring absence.

The next day we get "bloody nose"

Police said Zimmerman told them that he shot Martin in self-defense. Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee Jr. said that evidence and testimony may corroborate Zimmerman's story, because he had a bloody nose and had grass clippings on the back of his shirt, like he had been in a defensive posture.

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Father-Wants-Man-Who-Shot-His-Son-Arrested-142067953.html

The Miami Herald backs up what was apparent from the earlier report " • Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle." (March 21)

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...ission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy

It wasn't until we get to about March 23th, his 'lawyer' came out with the "broken nose" part:

"Zimmerman Attorney To Anderson Cooper: Trayvon Martin Broke My Client’s Nose"

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/zimmerma...-cooper-trayvon-martin-broke-my-clients-nose/


This was headlined as a new development.


Can ANYONE find anyone of official record stating Z had a broken nose before that ...March 23rd ...er...development? Anyone?

Cause I think that would be sort of important to the timeline. Sorta.

 

[LTC8K6]

Isn't it interesting that as late as three weeks after the incident, there is no reference by the police of a broken nose.

Bloody is all that is noted. I've searched to find anything from those early reports for mention of the term "broken" from the officials regarding his nose, and have come up empty.

In fact, in an early report by the Sentinel (March 8th) there is no mention of the even the blood (the family contends that notation was added later) -- but you can see here, only the grass is noted:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...g-police-headquarters-investigation-next-week

It quotes that line Zimmerman made about crying for help, "but no one would help me!" -- but no mention of blood. I would think that would have been noted. Pretty glaring absence.

The next day we get "bloody nose"

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Father-Wants-Man-Who-Shot-His-Son-Arrested-142067953.html

The Miami Herald backs up what was apparent from the earlier report " • Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle." (March 21)

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...ission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy

It wasn't until we get to about March 23th, his 'lawyer' came out with the "broken nose" part:

"Zimmerman Attorney To Anderson Cooper: Trayvon Martin Broke My Client’s Nose"

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/zimmerma...-cooper-trayvon-martin-broke-my-clients-nose/


This was headlined as a new development.


Can ANYONE find anyone of official record stating Z had a broken nose before that ...March 23rd ...er...development? Anyone?

Cause I think that would be sort of important to the timeline. Sorta.

The initial police report says GZ had blood coming from his nose.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86948628/Trayvon-Martin-Police-Report

 

[Rare Truth]

The initial police report says GZ had blood coming from his nose.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86948628/Trayvon-Martin-Police-Report

I'll repeat it. Should I note it in larger font so you might actually read it this time, or will a simply replay suffice?

In fact, in an early report by the Sentinel (March 8th) there is no mention of the even the blood (the family contends that notation was added later) -- but you can see here, only the grass is noted:

When police arrived, an officer overheard Zimmerman complain, "'I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me,'" according to an incident report released Thursday. It also noted that, the back of Zimmerman's shirt was wet and had grass clippings on it, as if he'd been on his back on the ground.
On one recorded 911 call, the police chief said, "You can hear the struggle and the gunshot."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...g-police-headquarters-investigation-next-week

It quotes that line Zimmerman made about yelling for help, "...but no one would help me" -- but no mention of blood. The Sentinel notes they were going by the incident report. One would think the blood part would have been noted. Pretty glaring absence.

The next day we get "bloody nose"

Police said Zimmerman told them that he shot Martin in self-defense. Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee Jr. said that evidence and testimony may corroborate Zimmerman's story, because he had a bloody nose and had grass clippings on the back of his shirt, like he had been in a defensive posture.

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Father-Wants-Man-Who-Shot-His-Son-Arrested-142067953.html

The Miami Herald backs up what was apparent from the earlier report " • Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle." (March 21)

And this most important question:

--------> Can ANYONE find anyone of official record stating Z had a broken nose before that ...March 23rd development? Anyone?

Can you?

Bet you can't.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Isn't it interesting that as late as three weeks after the incident, there is no reference by the police of a broken nose.

No.

Bloody is all that is noted.

Because police aren't qualified to diagnose a broken nose ? But can easliy observe and write bloody ?

I've searched to find anything from those early reports for mention of the term "broken" from the officials regarding his nose, and have come up empty.

Because most of the 'official' information we have is through leaks, not the SPD releasing it ? That, and what I wrote above ... police aren't EMTs.

In fact, in an early report by the Sentinel (March 8th) there is no mention of the even the blood (the family contends that notation was added later) -- but you can see here, only the grass is noted:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...g-police-headquarters-investigation-next-week

It quotes that line Zimmerman made about yelling for help, "...but no one would help me" -- but no mention of blood. The Sentinel notes they were going by the incident report. One would think the blood part would have been noted. Pretty glaring absence.

what ?

He saw the teen and called police. Two minutes later, 17-year-old Trayvon was on the ground, dying from a single gunshot wound. Police found Zimmerman standing nearby, a gun in his waistband and blood seeping from injuries to his nose and the back of his head.

The next day we get "bloody nose"

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Father-Wants-Man-Who-Shot-His-Son-Arrested-142067953.html

The Miami Herald backs up what was apparent from the earlier report " • Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle." (March 21)

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...ission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy

It wasn't until we get to about March 23th, his 'lawyer' came out with the "broken nose" part:

"Zimmerman Attorney To Anderson Cooper: Trayvon Martin Broke My Client’s Nose"

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/zimmerma...-cooper-trayvon-martin-broke-my-clients-nose/


This was headlined as a new development.

Probably becuase, IIRC, that's about when GZ attorneys (at the time) stated anything at all - IOW - they had been silent up to that point.

Can ANYONE find anyone of official record stating Z had a broken nose before that ...March 23rd ...er...development? Anyone?

Cause I think that would be sort of important to the timeline. Sorta.

Neighbors saw him with a bandage on his nose the next day, after he claimed he went to the hospital. I understand that is not an 'official record' - but I am unsure of what you are expecting to find ?

 

[curi0us]

I'll repeat it. Should I note it in larger font so you might actually read it this time, or will a simply replay suffice?

In fact, in an early report by the Sentinel (March 8th) there is no mention of the even the blood (the family contends that notation was added later) -- but you can see here, only the grass is noted:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...g-police-headquarters-investigation-next-week

It quotes that line Zimmerman made about yelling for help, "...but no one would help me" -- but no mention of blood. The Sentinel notes they were going by the incident report. One would think the blood part would have been noted. Pretty glaring absence.

The next day we get "bloody nose"

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Father-Wants-Man-Who-Shot-His-Son-Arrested-142067953.html

The Miami Herald backs up what was apparent from the earlier report " • Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle." (March 21)

The initial police reports were filed late the same night of the shooting and mentioned that the back of GZ's head and nose were bleeding.
http://onward.justia.com/wp-content...mmerman-shooting-police-report-fl-2272012.pdf

Quoting newspaper sources that say otherwise just proves how inaccurate and unfair the media was to GZ.

And this most important question:

--------> Can ANYONE find anyone of official record stating Z had a broken nose before that ...March 23rd development? Anyone?

Can you?

Bet you can't.

I bet I can. What do you want to bet?

 

[Rare Truth]

Why would the Sentinel story of March 8th, where it is noted clearly they had seen the incident report note the part of only the grass? The BLOODY part is NOT THERE.

Pretty damn important information to leave out.

No, the police are not EMT's, but they also HAVE the EMT report as part of their investigation, know full well Zimmerman's treatment last literally a few minutes in the back of a squad car -- and also do not note since that time - a week - no "broken nose" medical records exist, or have been presented by Zimmerman after.

The police at any time between the incident and March 23 could have reported this, as it would certainly bolster Police Chief Lee's case, especially as the intensity was growing and he was fighting back on his decision to not submit a warrant for his arrest, yet he makes not one mention of this supposed "broken nose." None.

Awfully strange, if you ask me.

 

[johnny karate]

are we sure GZ nose was broken
is pretty much the same question as:
Have we found out for sure yet that his nose was broken?



I wasn't trying to 'tar and feather' anyone.

And yet you didn't bother to just simply provide an accurate quote.

I am trying to understand why you would claim we don't know something for sure that I think we obviously do. At least as 'for sure' as many other things we 'know' about the case.

"For sure" denotes certainty. If you want to argue that we know Zimmerman had broken nose with as much certainty as anything else we know about this case, I won't disagree. But there were no such qualifiers in the question to which I responded.

I'm sorry if my feeling of certainty regarding Zimmerman's broken nose isn't as unquestionable as yours. But I don't deny Zimmerman had a broken nose, nor have I ever. Furthermore, I think it is highly likely that he did indeed have a broken nose. A release of his medical records will place my belief into that same realm of indisputable certainty at which you seem to have already arrived.

And if that isn't good enough for you, then I'm afraid you're simply going to have to figure out a way to live with it. Because it's all I have to offer.

 

[Rare Truth]

The initial police reports were filed late the same night of the shooting and mentioned that the back of GZ's head and nose were bleeding.
http://onward.justia.com/wp-content...mmerman-shooting-police-report-fl-2272012.pdf

Quoting newspaper sources that say otherwise just proves how inaccurate and unfair the media was to GZ.


I bet I can. What do you want to bet?

Pony up, big boy.

I'll admit I was wrong if you can find a record of someone in official capacity stating Zimmerman had a broken nose before then.

I'm waiting with baited...

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

By God that's it! The police didn't mention the broken nose and it only shows up later. I bet that naughty boy George went home and broke his nose and then want to the doctor.

Why would the Sentinel story of March 8th, where it is noted clearly they had seen the incident report note the part of only the grass? The BLOODY part is NOT THERE.

Pretty damn important information to leave out.

No, the police are not EMT's, but they also HAVE the EMT report as part of their investigation, know full well Zimmerman's treatment last literally a few minutes in the back of a squad car -- and also do not note since that time - a week - no "broken nose" medical records exist, or have been presented by Zimmerman after.

The police at any time between the incident and March 23 could have reported this, as it would certainly bolster Police Chief Lee's case, especially as the intensity was growing and he was fighting back on his decision to not submit a warrant for his arrest, yet he makes not one mention of this supposed "broken nose." None.

Awfully strange, if you ask me.

I just knew the way those damn twin towers fell down couldn't be from a couple of little planes!

 

[Mumbles]

I actually think TM is intent on confronting GZ if GZ comes into view again.

TM's only reason for running is to hide and wait, imo.

This makes no sense. How would Trayvon know, ahead of time, that Zimmerman would get out of his car to pursue him? And why on earth would he continue to talk to people on the phone while hiding? Martin has a far more obvious reason to get away from Zimmerman, that being to get say from the strange man who was staring at him.

 

[Rare Truth]

By God that's it! The police didn't mention the broken nose and it only shows up later. I bet that naughty boy George went home and broke his nose and then want to the doctor.
...

You can't find any early reports of a broken nose either, can you?

 

[IDB87]

You can't find any early reports of a broken nose either, can you?

If they don't exist, it doesn't mean George's nose wasn't broken.

I think there's a turn of phrase for that sort of argument.

 

[crimresearch]

If they don't exist, it doesn't mean George's nose wasn't broken.

I think there's a turn of phrase for that sort of argument.

No true HIPAA?

 

[IDB87]

No true HIPAA?

Not emotionally charged enough.