Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[TheL8Elvis]

I did as you asked, I stated my opinions and what I think happened. Then you said I didn't back up my claims. The information I provided was based on the information available at this time.

I didn't ask you to state your opinions and I didn't say you didn't back up your claims. Please quote where I did that.
Also, please quote where you think I had an attitude with you and was anything other than civil.

I don't believe GZ's version of the events. I don't know if the forensics will back him. Right now, I don't think so.

Despite the quotes I provided where the lead investigator states they have no evidence to contradict GZ story.

Is your opinion that the lead investigator is mistaken in his testimony, and there is forensic evidence to contradict GZ story ?

You don't like my answers and you think my claims are false. Ok, so be it. We don't agree, but please don't say I didn't answer you.

I did say:

I am not going to the effort to respond to your post point by point, because you have ignored that in the past.

I don't think I claimed you didn't answer me.

 

[Xulld]

I think the law is faulty and poorly written. Again, that's not GZ's fault. He was the adult and the one carrying a weapon so for me, it behooved him to be more careful. I don't think any person should be able to start trouble and use a gun to finish it.

How so? It contains the very elements you mention later. Can you quote the law and show us what parts are poorly written?

 

[KatieG]

How so? It contains the very elements you mention later. Can you quote the law and show us what parts are poorly written?

From my above post:

I must confess that after many weeks of discussion, I don't really understand SYG. I get the principle of it, but not the nuance behind the it. Chief Lee stated GZ was released based on SYG. What am I missing here?

Based on what I do understand, or believe I understand about the SYG law, I don't think it's right to pen a law that allows someone to start a confrontation and when they begin to lose the fight can pull out a gun and shoot someone. If this is not the case in the matter we are discussing, then it's irrelevant to GZ.

 

[KatieG]

I didn't ask you to state your opinions and I didn't say you didn't back up your claims. Please quote where I did that.
Also, please quote where you think I had an attitude with you and was anything other than civil.



Despite the quotes I provided where the lead investigator states they have no evidence to contradict GZ story.

Is your opinion that the lead investigator is mistaken in his testimony, and there is forensic evidence to contradict GZ story ?



I did say:

I don't think I claimed you didn't answer me.

Wow, I think we're talking in circles this morning and I'm sorry. Though I don't agree with you, I do respect your POV and you're not a troll or a trash talker. I hope I'm not either.

Can we temporarily retreat to our respective corners and try again?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Here is something that potentially contradicts Zimmerman.

Over at DailyKos, they took a still shot from a video of the crime scene.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/23/1085878/-Trayvon-Martin-Crime-Scene-Photo

In it, you can see that Trayvon's body is lying a good 10 feet from the sidewalk (I'll grant that the exact distance is hard to ascertain from this photo).

Some explanations:

1. Trayvon was shot while on his knees, straddling Zimmerman, then got up and staggered to the other side of that small rise.
2. Zimmerman pushed Trayvon off of him and rolled him to the spot where he ended up.
3. EMT or police moved his body.

Occam's razor seems to suggest that Trayvon was shot close to where he ended up. If so, he's not anywhere near concrete.

CBS is behind the times. That was the original fox orlando video, I believe:
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/022612-Deadly-shooting-in-Sanford

Watch the video. They are investigating where we have heard the incident happened ... behind the second house ("johns house"). If that is the body of TM, I'd say it was likely moved.

BTW, that video is live at 10:30 ... right when Mr. Martin and Ms. Green arrived home from dinner. Hard to believe they missed seeing all that, huh ?

 

[Dancing David]

No there isn't. Where are you getting these fantastic notions?

Wow, I have opinions. Yours are different.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Wow, I think we're talking in circles this morning and I'm sorry. Though I don't agree with you, I do respect your POV and you're not a troll or a trash talker. I hope I'm not either.

Can we temporarily retreat to our respective corners and try again?

No point in going in circles. Neutral corners it is.

 

[Freddy]

From my above post:

I must confess that after many weeks of discussion, I don't really understand SYG. I get the principle of it, but not the nuance behind the it. Chief Lee stated GZ was released based on SYG. What am I missing here?

Based on what I do understand, or believe I understand about the SYG law, I don't think it's right to pen a law that allows someone to start a confrontation and when they begin to lose the fight can pull out a gun and shoot someone. If this is not the case in the matter we are discussing, then it's irrelevant to GZ.

The SYG law explicitly grants immunity from arrest to a homicide suspect claiming self defense, unless there is probable cause that the use of force was unlawful. Sometimes probable cause is apparent from the observations of police in their initial response, and/or from the initial interview of the suspect. In that case, an arrest can be made at that time. Otherwise, the SYG law permits the police to continue investigating just like they would any suspicious death. If and when they have probable cause to believe the use of force was not in legal self-defense, they can arrest and prosecute. There is no statute of limitations on murder.

Even in non-SYG jurisdictions, police will often wait until they have solid evidence against a self-defense claim before making an arrest. Once you make an arrest, the clock starts ticking on bringing charges, and various other procedural rights kick in automatically that the suspect would otherwise have to assert (most importantly, having a lawyer present when talking to police). Thus, it is not unusual for an arrest to be delayed for days or even weeks in a case like this. I think that in this case the police initially made statements that made it sound like this was all over, case closed (even though apparently they were still investigating). That made it reasonable to question what was going on.

 

[LTC8K6]

CBS is behind the times. That was the original fox orlando video, I believe:
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/022612-Deadly-shooting-in-Sanford

Watch the video. They are investigating where we have heard the incident happened ... behind the second house ("johns house"). If that is the body of TM, I'd say it was likely moved.

BTW, that video is live at 10:30 ... right when Mr. Martin and Ms. Green arrived home from dinner. Hard to believe they missed seeing all that, huh ?

Yeah, the body being 7-10 feet from the sidewalk is no contradiction to Zimmerman's story at all.

 

[KatieG]

I want to use one example of this case in regards to GZ's head wounds.

WARNING! Anecdotal data head!

Years ago, when I was a stupid young woman, I dated a man that became abusive after he lost his job. He was also an alcoholic. I was so sure I could fix him!

One night, he got pissed cuz I didn't jump up fast enough to get him a beer. When I came back with it, he smacked me upside the head with the bottle. He slammed my face into the wall, shattering my cheekbone and knocking out a tooth. He then threw me down on the stone tile floor and beat my head against the floor for I don't really remember how long.

Anyway, I had at least a 2 dozen small cuts on my head and one area split open from the pounding. I had waist length hair at the time and at the emergency room, I became hysterical because they wanted to cut my hair to get to all the wounds. I was covered in blood. No cellphones back in the 70s so no pics but I know what I looked like a couple days later. They had to cut parts of my hair to stitch the small wounds and shaved a small area around the split open area to clean it, stitch and bandage it. I was in the hospital overnight for observation because of fear of serious concussion.

I feared for my life until the moment I passed out. He also outweighed me by about 100 pounds so there was definitely reasonable fear.

I do not think the pictures/video we've seen demonstrates injuries consistent with reasonable fear for one's life. If medical professionals are willing to release him at the scene, I would think they didn't see evidence of serious injury. Until medical reports are produced indicating GZ had serious injuries, I don't believe he had reasonable fear. JMO

 

[Xulld]

From my above post:

I must confess that after many weeks of discussion, I don't really understand SYG. I get the principle of it, but not the nuance behind the it. Chief Lee stated GZ was released based on SYG. What am I missing here?

Based on what I do understand, or believe I understand about the SYG law, I don't think it's right to pen a law that allows someone to start a confrontation and when they begin to lose the fight can pull out a gun and shoot someone. If this is not the case in the matter we are discussing, then it's irrelevant to GZ.

Ahh, so without reading the law yourself, nor looking into case law which shows how it is interpreted, you accept what a person claims based solely on his authority as a police officer. Gotcha. (No snark here btw, just trying to understand the impetus of this opinion, correct me if I am wrong)

The SYG law explicitly grants immunity from arrest to a homicide suspect claiming self defense, unless there is probable cause that the use of force was unlawful. Sometimes probable cause is apparent from the observations of police in their initial response, and/or from the initial interview of the suspect. In that case, an arrest can be made at that time. Otherwise, the SYG law permits the police to continue investigating just like they would any suspicious death. If and when they have probable cause to believe the use of force was not in legal self-defense, they can arrest and prosecute. There is no statute of limitations on murder.

Even in non-SYG jurisdictions, police will often wait until they have solid evidence against a self-defense claim before making an arrest. Once you make an arrest, the clock starts ticking on bringing charges, and various other procedural rights kick in automatically that the suspect would otherwise have to assert (most importantly, having a lawyer present when talking to police). Thus, it is not unusual for an arrest to be delayed for days or even weeks in a case like this. I think that in this case the police initially made statements that made it sound like this was all over, case closed (even though apparently they were still investigating). That made it reasonable to question what was going on.

Ugggh, where to start.

I guess the best place to start is to explain there is no law called Stand your ground.

The second thing to understand is that the basic fundamentals of lawful self defense are past down from the supreme court which guides ALL state laws. So Florida is not different in this regard from any other state, and SYG is not the determining factor.

The portion of the law that is regularly refereed to as stand your ground removed the burden of retreating from the standard self defense law. That is it, it does not outline the requirements of prosecution, that is already laid out by the supreme court.

The very fact that Zimmerman has now been arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder should in and of itself PROVE that Florida law does not prevent the PA from filing charges if they think they have a case, really almost without regard to the actual evidence.

It is possible through the actions of the PA, and police that a person arrested without probable cause could file a civil rights violation, but that is a different story.

 

[LTC8K6]

I want to use one example of this case in regards to GZ's head wounds.

WARNING! Anecdotal data head!

Years ago, when I was a stupid young woman, I dated a man that became abusive after he lost his job. He was also an alcoholic. I was so sure I could fix him!

One night, he got pissed cuz I didn't jump up fast enough to get him a beer. When I came back with it, he smacked me upside the head with the bottle. He slammed my face into the wall, shattering my cheekbone and knocking out a tooth. He then threw me down on the stone tile floor and beat my head against the floor for I don't really remember how long.

Anyway, I had at least a 2 dozen small cuts on my head and one area split open from the pounding. I had waist length hair at the time and at the emergency room, I became hysterical because they wanted to cut my hair to get to all the wounds. I was covered in blood. No cellphones back in the 70s so no pics but I know what I looked like a couple days later. They had to cut parts of my hair to stitch the small wounds and shaved a small area around the split open area to clean it, stitch and bandage it. I was in the hospital overnight for observation because of fear of serious concussion.

I feared for my life until the moment I passed out. He also outweighed me by about 100 pounds so there was definitely reasonable fear.

I do not think the pictures/video we've seen demonstrates injuries consistent with reasonable fear for one's life. If medical professionals are willing to release him at the scene, I would think they didn't see evidence of serious injury. Until medical reports are produced indicating GZ had serious injuries, I don't believe he had reasonable fear. JMO

That's fine for your opinion, but legally GZ didn't need to have more severe injuries, as far as I know. Once he is being injured by his attacker, it's enough.

There is no duty to wait until your injuries are "bad enough", and there never was, even before the SYG laws.

A jury will be following the law and FL's jury instructions, if it gets that far.

 

[KatieG]

The SYG law explicitly grants immunity from arrest to a homicide suspect claiming self defense, unless there is probable cause that the use of force was unlawful. Sometimes probable cause is apparent from the observations of police in their initial response, and/or from the initial interview of the suspect. In that case, an arrest can be made at that time. Otherwise, the SYG law permits the police to continue investigating just like they would any suspicious death. If and when they have probable cause to believe the use of force was not in legal self-defense, they can arrest and prosecute. There is no statute of limitations on murder.

Even in non-SYG jurisdictions, police will often wait until they have solid evidence against a self-defense claim before making an arrest. Once you make an arrest, the clock starts ticking on bringing charges, and various other procedural rights kick in automatically that the suspect would otherwise have to assert (most importantly, having a lawyer present when talking to police). Thus, it is not unusual for an arrest to be delayed for days or even weeks in a case like this. I think that in this case the police initially made statements that made it sound like this was all over, case closed (even though apparently they were still investigating). That made it reasonable to question what was going on.

OMG, thank you so much. That now makes perfect sense. The SPD was under no obligation to arrest GZ for anything that night. So releasing him was not an unreasonable thing to do. Now I'm clear about what happened with SPD.

 

[KatieG]

That's fine for your opinion, but legally GZ didn't need to have more severe injuries, as far as I know. Once he is being injured by his attacker, it's enough.

There is no duty to wait until your injuries are "bad enough", and there never was, even before the SYG laws.

A jury will be following the law and FL's jury instructions, if it gets that far.

What if he was the attacker? Didn't TM have the same rights under SYG? Since we don't know what happened, the bar has to be set somewhere.

 

[LTC8K6]

OMG, thank you so much. That now makes perfect sense. The SPD was under no obligation to arrest GZ for anything that night. So releasing him was not an unreasonable thing to do. Now I'm clear about what happened with SPD.

The City Manager released a statement to that effect a long time ago to try to calm down the cries of wanting an arrest.

This is another hurdle for the prosecution, imo. The SPD and the city manager have already basically said this was a legit self defense case.

Why was George Zimmerman not arrested the night of the shooting?
When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr.
Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time
was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law
enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and
circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an
arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the
arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in
bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

 

[LTC8K6]

What if he was the attacker? Didn't TM have the same rights under SYG? Since we don't know what happened, the bar has to be set somewhere.

You'd have to show that GZ attacked TM. Not just mouthed off, but attacked.

Even then we've already seen that FL law still leaves room for Zimmerman to use deadly force.

One would expect signs of a fight on TM, and we've already heard there aren't any.

 

[LTC8K6]

The Sanford Police Department has conducted a complete and fair investigation of
this incident.

Straight from the City Manager's 3/23 release.

 

[Unabogie]

CBS is behind the times. That was the original fox orlando video, I believe:
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/022612-Deadly-shooting-in-Sanford

Watch the video. They are investigating where we have heard the incident happened ... behind the second house ("johns house"). If that is the body of TM, I'd say it was likely moved.

BTW, that video is live at 10:30 ... right when Mr. Martin and Ms. Green arrived home from dinner. Hard to believe they missed seeing all that, huh ?

How do you get "likely" rather than they covered him up right where he died? It seems like you're just dismissing this evidence that contradicts Zimmerman without any evidence or rationale as to why they moved a murder victim onto the grass before covering him up. That may have happened, but there's zero evidence to suggest it. How you get that it's the MOST likely answer, rather than the simple explanation that this is where Trayvon died, is not clear to me.

 

[KatieG]

The City Manager released a statement to that effect a long time ago to try to calm down the cries of wanting an arrest.

This is another hurdle for the prosecution, imo. The SPD and the city manager have already basically said this was a legit self defense case.



http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

I didn't get it at that time. Comprehension failed me.

 

[LTC8K6]

How do you get "likely" rather than they covered him up right where he died? It seems like you're just dismissing this evidence that contradicts Zimmerman without any evidence or rationale as to why they moved a murder victim onto the grass before covering him up. That may have happened, but there's zero evidence to suggest it. How you get that it's the MOST likely answer, rather than the simple explanation that this is where Trayvon died, is not clear to me.

If Zimmerman managed to wiggle off the sidewalk during the struggle, then we have TM moving after he's shot, then we have him rolled over for CPR, and maybe moved to see what's under him...

Why would he still be near the sidewalk?