Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[eerok]

Those are all good questions that many of us have grappled with, I think. I think where you are erring is you seem to only be willing to entertain one side of the equation

Not at all—I just don't see the other side being addressed at all. I think it should be.

That mostly expresses my position.

The rest of my position is that I don't like seeing kids targeted and killed by vigilantes.

It's possible that TM was as much of an idiot as GZ was, but that hasn't been established.

 

[johnny karate]

For some reason I thought that he had been suspended for having a burglary tool and some jewelery of "unexplained provenance" on his person?

Not that this implies he was casing houses on any particular night...

I don't know how factual any of it was, but the so-called "burglary tool" was actually a screwdriver. Which leads me to hope my home is never raided by the police because of all the burglary tools they would find.

But I do enjoy how a screwdriver and jewelry in a locker = Trayvon Martin is a burglar. I guess Zimmerman just caught him on his night off.

 

[johnny karate]

Yes, Captain J.K.

You salute me when you say that, dammit!

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

For some reason I thought that he had been suspended for having a burglary tool and some jewelery of "unexplained provenance" on his person?

He was caught in school with jewelry which he would not identify where he got it, and a screwdriver. However they could not identify it as stolen, and maybe he carried a screwdriver because he wanted to be a carpenter.

 

[curi0us]

So you have evidence for your various allegations? I look forward to seeing it.

I've already presented it in this thread and my last two posts on the matter tied it all together with cites from reputable sources.

Fascinating. But how does Celox fit into all this? I think Celox is the key.

That's not even an attempt at a reasonable response. If you want to engage the bandage issue some more my last post on it is still unchallenged by you.

Personally I think the Crump/PR effort aspect to this story is a much more interesting topic for discussion anyways though. From my perspective it's your version of what happened that has been CT. In your world believing in white police committing a conspiracy is very believable but the idea that black attorneys could by equally manipulative/dishonest is unthinkable. Even when the evidence has been rolling in showing how dishonest Crump has been your thought processes still refuse to engage the issue.

That Sharpton got away with supporting a similar scam in the Tawana Brawley case but still has had a very impressive career afterwords should have been a huge wake up call for people.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

That Sharpton got away with supporting a...scam in the Tawana Brawley case but still has had a very impressive career afterwords should have been a huge wake up call for people.

That's always been shocking. To say that he should have never been taken seriously by anyone from that moment forward is an understatement, yet he just kept right on going with barely a bump in the road. He should have been utterly ostracized by every person serious about civil rights as any type of a spokesman for black America.

 

[johnny karate]

I've already presented it in this thread and my last two posts on the matter tied it all together with cites from reputable sources.

No, you just made a bunch of goofy allegations.

Like this one:

Crump's PR use of the underage photo were critical to getting Mary Cutcher to say she Knew GZ was guilty

That's not even an attempt at a reasonable response. If you want to engage the bandage issue some more my last post on it is still unchallenged by you.

It was hard for me to read through tears of laughter. And even harder for me to take even remotely seriously at this point.

Personally I think the Crump/PR effort aspect to this story is a much more interesting topic for discussion anyways though. From my perspective it's your version of what happened that has been CT. In your world believing in white police committing a conspiracy is very believable but the idea that black attorneys could by equally manipulative/dishonest is unthinkable. Even when the evidence has been rolling in showing how dishonest Crump has been your thought processes still refuse to engage the issue.

That Sharpton got away with supporting a similar scam in the Tawana Brawley case but still has had a very impressive career afterwords should have been a huge wake up call for people.

I'm telling you it's the Celox. Follow the Celox.

 

[LTC8K6]

That claim was made a while back. When it was pointed out that Zimmerman had a bit of an irregularly-shaped nose to begin with, everyone fell back to the position of "impossible to tell anything on that video".

I had not seen that still before. I'm sticking with "busted up nose".

 

[johnny karate]

I had not seen that still before. I'm sticking with "busted up nose".

You do that. And I'll stick with "no bandages or visible signs of significant injuries on the back of his head".

 

[LTC8K6]

You do that. And I'll stick with "no bandages or visible signs of significant injuries on the back of his head".

That's just my opinion of the photo.

I know there are medical reports for the actual injuries, and these reports will likely be released, so I just need to wait.

No need or point in trying to define the injuries now, imo.

 

[eerok]

I know there are medical reports for the actual injuries, and these reports will likely be released, so I just need to wait.

No need or point in trying to define the injuries now, imo.

I never understood the impulse on this thread to elevate GZ's injuries past fistfight-level damage. That's all they ever were. No medical reports will change that.

The posts suggesting GZ's injuries are irrelevant were all correct IMO. His only chance at showing that his life was in danger is in showing that TM wanted to get his gun and shoot him.

Needless to say, there's always the possibility that TM wanted to get the gun in order to prevent himself from being shot. This is the real issue, I think.

 

[curi0us]

resignation rejected

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/...ief-bill-lee-s-resignation-rejected-1.3677308

Interesting. City Manager Bonaparte is a very important figure in this narrative and it seems he tried to force Lee's resignation and the commission just rejected Bonaparte manipulations. From MSNBC:

Only City Manager Norton Bonaparte was in a position to fire Lee or ask for his resignation, which he apparently requested after determining that outside assessments by the Department of Justice or other parties would take many months. By resigning, Lee would be eligible for a severance package.

Some of the commission members said Bonaparte's resolution to accept Lee's resignation was a surprise, and a capitulation to outside pressures on Bonaparte.

"This was resign, or else, folks," said Randy Jones, characterizing the resignation as forced by Bonaparte. "It is not the Sanford residents who created this firestorm. It was brought in from the outside. We all know it."

Lee's supporters on the Sanford City Commission on Monday said they would not accept the resignation of Lee, and characterized it as purely political.

"You are eliminating a man who did nothing wrong," said*Commissioner*Patty Mahany, who*has described*Lee as a scapegoat in the furor over the case. "Chief Lee deserves a better*than this."

The commission ultimately rejected Bonaparte's resolution to accept the resignation over Lee.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-from-police-chief-in-trayvon-martin-shooting

 

[curi0us]

I never understood the impulse on this thread to elevate GZ's injuries past fistfight-level damage. That's all they ever were. No medical reports will change that.

The posts suggesting GZ's injuries are irrelevant were all correct IMO. His only chance at showing that his life was in danger is in showing that TM wanted to get his gun and shoot him.

Needless to say, there's always the possibility that TM wanted to get the gun in order to prevent himself from being shot. This is the real issue, I think.

Have you listened to the 911 call with screaming in the background yet?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I never understood the impulse on this thread to elevate GZ's injuries past fistfight-level damage. That's all they ever were. No medical reports will change that.

I believe there has been hardly any attempt to elevate them past "fist fight level damage", to the contrary, it's mainly been others that have continually tried to suggest they were either non-existent, or needed to be much worse, which you now seem to be doing, and is a fallacy.

The posts suggesting GZ's injuries are irrelevant were all correct IMO. His only chance at showing that his life was in danger is in showing that TM wanted to get his gun and shoot him.

This assumes that a person being beaten can't be in fear for their life unless they've been beaten past some "magical" threshold. His nose was broken, his head was lacerated, he could have feared losing consciousness, feared his gun was then going to be taken and used against him etc.

It's also likely employing 20/20 hindsight. If GZ was being beaten as he claimed he had no idea at that moment who was beating him or why and could have believed they intended to kill him. He was not obligated to allow them to beat him within an inch of his life in order to prove self-defense.

So you are quite right that there is no need to elevate his injuries past "fist fight level damage", but quite wrong in assuming they can't give him a legitimate self-defense claim.

Please note, I am not saying that anyone that gets beat up should be able to shoot their attacker, nor that GZ being beaten up in and of itself gives him a right to shoot his attacker, so let's not go with that strawman please .

 

[lane99]

...I really want to see a reason why TM would want to do any harm to GZ that didn't stem directly from a threat from GZ. Anyone got one?

So I have a logical appeal, not just an emotional one. Why, except to defend himself, would TM engage violently with GZ? Don't be shy. If you know the answer, please offer it.

There does seem to be clear evidence that the shooter had a chip on his shoulder toward the boy that was killed before any physical altercation between them had even begun. And he seems the sort to provoke and escalate confrontation and violence.

But that doesn't mean it's impossible that the shooter's self-defense claim is false. Does the boy that was shot have any prior record of acting out violently? If so, the shooter's claim becomes somewhat more plausible, imo.

p.s. Just wonderin': now that the shooter has been released from custody, is he entitled to resume riding shotgun? Or has he been disarmed?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Have you listened to the 911 call with screaming in the background yet?

Screaming schmeaming, we don't need to listen to no stinking screams!

It is funny how some seem to think if those are TM's screams it proves GZ murdered TM (which I'd agree they would suggest), yet on the other hand seem to think if they are GZ's screams that he was getting the beating he deserved.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

p.s. Just wonderin': now that the shooter has been released from custody, is he entitled to resume riding shotgun? Or has he been disarmed?

Part of the condition for his release is that he cannot carry and cannot consume alcohol.

 

[lane99]

Tks. Better late than never.

 

[bynmdsue]

How many times must one's head strike concrete before thinking the next time may result in loss of conciousness? Is there a guidebook? Me, personally? One time.

 

[johnny karate]

I never understood the impulse on this thread to elevate GZ's injuries past fistfight-level damage. That's all they ever were. No medical reports will change that.

The posts suggesting GZ's injuries are irrelevant were all correct IMO. His only chance at showing that his life was in danger is in showing that TM wanted to get his gun and shoot him.

Needless to say, there's always the possibility that TM wanted to get the gun in order to prevent himself from being shot. This is the real issue, I think.

The problem is that there seemed to be a concerted effort from Zimmerman and his advocates to make it seem like the fight and the subsequent injuries Zimmerman received as a result were more severe than evidence seems to be suggesting they were.

However, when confronted with the dubious light such inconsistencies place on Zimmerman's credibility, the line of argument becomes "Well, the seriousness of the injuries doesn't matter". This, of course, comes from some of the same people aghast over the diabolical deception on the part of the Martin family in choosing the photos they released to the media.