Republicans want to limit access to contraception

[leftysergeant]

And to those bringing up Planned Parenthood's breast-cancer exams, don't be facile. If PP was mainly about breast cancer it would be completely non-controversial.

The shrieking harpy and her nitwit congress critter friend do not even seem to like the idea of giving women access to non-abortive birth control advice and supplies.

 

[RandFan]

There is another life there too.

No there's not. It's no more "another life" than sperm or Ovum.

Claiming this is about controlling women's bodies is a form of strawman.

No it's not. Women don't want to be told what to do with their bodies. This affects their lives and their health.

And to those bringing up Planned Parenthood's breast-cancer exams, don't be facile. If PP was mainly about breast cancer it would be completely non-controversial.

Plannend parenthood is about women's health. What they do helps prevent unwanted pregnancy. Only 3% is about abortion. Who is being facile?

Planned Parenthood health centers focus on prevention: 76 percent of our clients receive services to prevent unintended pregnancy.

Planned Parenthood services help prevent more than 584,000 unintended pregnancies each year.


Planned Parenthood provides nearly 770,000 Pap tests and nearly 750,000 breast exams each year, critical services in detecting cancer.


Planned Parenthood provides more than four million tests and treatments for sexually transmitted infections, including HIV.


Three percent of all Planned Parenthood health services are abortion services.

 

[Corsair 115]

In regards to Planned Parenthood, surely we haven't forgotten the most excellent catch phrase that entered the cultural lexicon awhile back thanks to a certain Senator's incorrect statement about the percentage of a specific service it offered: "Not intended to be a factual statement."

I don't care what your position is, the facts are the facts.

Facts have no place in politics these days. All that matters is ideology.

 

[Brainster]

No there's not. It's no more "another life" than sperm or Ovum.

What about at six months or so when the baby can survive outside the womb? Is it life then? What about at 8 months and 29 days?

 

[RandFan]

What about at six months or so when the baby can survive outside the womb? Is it life then? What about at 8 months and 29 days?

What does that have to do with the OP?

 

[RandFan]

What about at six months or so when the baby can survive outside the womb? Is it life then? What about at 8 months and 29 days?

Brainster, I know you are sincere guy and if you want to believe that conception results in a human being then that's fine. But there is no basis for that belief. A "baby" has thoughts and feelings. The OP isn't about babies. RU 486 can only be taken for up to 7 weeks after conception. That's far less than 6 months. Also, all of these bills the GOP are suddenly passing, the ones we are concentrating on, the ones to get around Roe V. Wade and make it more difficult for a woman are about the 1st trimester.

 

[Brainster]

What does that have to do with the OP?

I was not replying to the OP. If you look back along the thread you will see that my response was to Cleon's argument that Republicans want to "legislate medical issues--as long as it's women's medical issues that are being legislated."

My guess is that 99% of the laws he is talking about (although arguably not this morning-after pill) have to do with abortion.

As to the point you raise about babies in the womb not having thoughts or feelings, I would certainly be interested in seeing research that proves this point.

 

[Puppycow]

There are none. I was just pointing out the fallacious argument that Republicans want to control women's medical treatments.

I happen to be (reluctantly) pro-choice, but nothing ticks me off more than this absurd "Republicans want to control women's bodies" meme.

And then using fallacious arguments, or just flat out lies, to try and support said absurd meme...

OK. Let me present you with some evidences then, courtesy of Rick Santorum:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...on-birth-control-social-issues_n_1284176.html

Santorum: Says he wouldn't try to take away the pill or condoms. But he believes states should be free to ban them if they want. He argues that the Supreme Court erred when it ruled in 1965 that married Americans have a right to privacy that includes the use of contraceptives.

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archive...le-wanting-the-government-to-leave-you-alone/

One of the criticisms I make is to what I refer to as more of a Libertarianish right.

They have this idea that people should be left alone, be able to do whatever they want to do, government should keep our taxes down and keep our regulations low, that we shouldn’t get involved in the bedroom, we shouldn’t get involved in cultural issues.

That is not how traditional conservatives view the world. There is no such society that I’m aware of, where we’ve had radical individualism and that it succeeds as a culture.”

- Rick Santorum

 

[RandFan]

My guess is that 99% of the laws he is talking about (although arguably not this morning-after pill) have to do with abortion.

Yes. They are about 1st trimester abortions.

As to the point you raise about babies in the womb not having thoughts or feelings, I would certainly be interested in seeing research that proves this point.

Measurable brain activity begins just before the third trimester. The activity is rudimentary and neuroscientists do not believe that this activity constitutes consciousness. Brain activity that is consistent with consciousness typically begins in the 28th week.

 

[ponderingturtle]

A technical distinction. Can anyone tell me why the distinction is important?

One is recommended by experts to be administered by professionals and the other is recommended by experts to be over the counter.

 

[Newtons Bit]

OK. Let me present you with some evidences then, courtesy of Rick Santorum:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...on-birth-control-social-issues_n_1284176.html



http://hotair.com/greenroom/archive...le-wanting-the-government-to-leave-you-alone/

There's a reason why Rick Santorum is no longer a Senator, and could not win the nomination. He's freaking nuts. I wouldn't accept his views as being a standard view of the party any more than I would accept Ron Paul's.

 

[RandFan]

One is recommended by experts to be administered by professionals and the other is recommended by experts to be over the counter.

Thanks.

I think my point was not very clear. I meant, what is the difference that should cause people to gasp in horror that a fertilized egg is being aborted as opposed to preventing a fertilized egg from implanting.

 

[BenBurch]

What about at six months or so when the baby can survive outside the womb? Is it life then? What about at 8 months and 29 days?

My opinion is that, since there is no such thing as a soul, human life is valuable in relation to other human beings and in relation to a self-aware self. I do not believe, and many psychologists do not believe, that infants become self-aware until some time after birth, and so I do not believe that any harm results from late-term abortions.

 

[RandFan]

What about at six months or so when the baby can survive outside the womb? Is it life then? What about at 8 months and 29 days?

My opinion is that, since there is no such thing as a soul, human life is valuable in relation to other human beings and in relation to a self-aware self. I do not believe, and many psychologists do not believe, that infants become self-aware until some time after birth, and so I do not believe that any harm results from late-term abortions.

Intuitively I rebel at the idea (never mind that late-term abortions are typically for very serious health issues), however, what is the basis of our belief that human life is sacrosanct above other forms of life? Perhaps it's not but there must be some lines of delineation and axioms for positing that human life is sacrosanct and to what extent relative to other species. I would submit in part and/or total, moral agency and the ability to appreciate suffering and the ability to appreciate one's volition. I would prioritize the latter two over the first in cases of dilemma.

Personally, I would steer clear of late-term abortions in cases where the health of mother and child are not at issue.

 

[BenBurch]

Intuitively I rebel at the idea (never mind that late-term abortions are typically for very serious health issues), however, what is the basis of our belief that human life is sacrosanct above other forms of life? Perhaps it's not but there must be some lines of delineation and axioms for positing that human life is sacrosanct and to what extent relative to other species. I would submit in part and/or total, moral agency and the ability to appreciate suffering and the ability to appreciate one's volition. I would prioritize the latter two over the first in cases of dilemma.

Personally, I would steer clear of late-term abortions in cases where the health of mother and child are not at issue.

I would too, but I wouldn't make that a rule others must follow on pain of death.

 

[RandFan]

YBrain activity that is consistent with consciousness typically begins in the 28th week.

...human life is valuable in relation to other human beings and in relation to a self-aware self. I do not believe, and many psychologists do not believe, that infants become self-aware until some time after birth, and so I do not believe that any harm results from late-term abortions.

It is worth it to note that consciousness, volition, self awareness, etc. are not binary things that are either on or off. If you have ever been in a state of twilight, that period where dreams and reality coexist in a blurry and abstract mix, then you understand this.

Prior to birth there is not as much sensory data as after delivery. This sensory data is crucial to the development of our percepton of self. Further, we know that the perception of reality and self are still somewhat fuzzy even for very young children even after they begin speaking. Now clearly babies, infants, toddlers and children have a very real sense of self, a very ego centric one at that. My point is that "self awareness" is not an either or thing. It's nuanced and complex and easily manipulated (see link about sensory data above).

This isn't to say that this is all there is to consider as it relates to abortion. It is to say that our preconceptions about what constitutes moral agency and volition are often wrong and calling every stage of fetal development from conception to birth "human life", is not at all helpful.

 

[Puppycow]

There's a reason why Rick Santorum is no longer a Senator, and could not win the nomination. He's freaking nuts. I wouldn't accept his views as being a standard view of the party any more than I would accept Ron Paul's.

Ron Paul hasn't won any primaries. Santorum actually won some states and is the runner-up in delegates.

 

[Puppycow]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-april-16-2012/the-battle-for-the-war-on-women

Arizona Birth Control Bill Penalizes Women For Using Contraception For Non-Medical Reasons

Arizona legislators have advanced an unprecedented bill that would require women who wish to have their contraception covered by their health insurance plans to prove to their employers that they are taking it to treat medical conditions. The bill also makes it easier for Arizona employers to fire a woman for using birth control to prevent pregnancy despite the employer's moral objection.

 

[RandFan]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-april-16-2012/the-battle-for-the-war-on-women

Arizona Birth Control Bill Penalizes Women For Using Contraception For Non-Medical Reasons

Arizona legislators have advanced an unprecedented bill that would require women who wish to have their contraception covered by their health insurance plans to prove to their employers that they are taking it to treat medical conditions. The bill also makes it easier for Arizona employers to fire a woman for using birth control to prevent pregnancy despite the employer's moral objection.

There are many reasonable and decent Republicans. It's not fair to broad brush all of them, but damn, as a group the GOP is seriously off the tracks.

 

[Cleon]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-april-16-2012/the-battle-for-the-war-on-women

Arizona Birth Control Bill Penalizes Women For Using Contraception For Non-Medical Reasons

I'm sure there's some bizarre twist of logic in which I'm not supposed to describe this as Republicans passing laws to control womens' medicine.

Yay for small government!