Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[LTC8K6]

I wonder how the prosecution will get around the statement from the Sanford PD regarding why they did not arrest George Zimmerman?

It basically says that at the time, the evidence and testimony supported a self defense claim made by Zimmerman. It says that Zimmerman's statement was supported by the evidence and testimony taken that night.

And it now looks like Sanford PD actually did a good initial investigation, including grilling GZ and making him do physical demonstrations.

They will have to show that the evidence and testimony has changed, or that Sanford PD is incompetent. Or something.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Imaginary Scenario. Man is walking home. Man gets attacked by a mugger and is beaten. His nose is broken and his head has lacerations and is bleeding. Man pulls out gun and shoots mugger during the struggle, claiming fear for his life. How many people would be arguing his injuries were not severe enough to warrant shooting in self-defense?

What's different here?
1. GZ was the one who initially followed TM, but it's not legally relevant to what took place when the fight happened.
2. TM was not a mugger, but that's not legally relevant either with regard to what took place when the fight happened.

Otherwise IF the story GZ is telling is true, the imaginary scenario applies and 1 and 2 are irrelevant. In fact, for practical purposes GZ must have believed that TM was a criminal that was attacking him and in that light the fear for his life would be that much more reasonable. That's the point people keep ignoring because they have 20/20 hindsight and know TM was not a criminal. But we have to put ourselves in that moment and decide what was reasonable for GZ IF his version of how it went down is true.

Summary - the wounds as we've seen them are more than enough for an assertion of self-defense. What's relevant and defining is how the fight really started, and how it really played out. That's where the claim of self-defense could fall apart or where GZ could be lying.

 

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by RandFan
He could have been injured. If so it sure isn't severe.

It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. Good for you. I hope it was enjoyable. You scored a major victory. People on the Internet were wrong and you showed them.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I wonder how the prosecution will get around the statement from the Sanford PD regarding why they did not arrest George Zimmerman?

It basically says that at the time, the evidence and testimony supported a self defense claim made by Zimmerman. It says that Zimmerman's statement was supported by the evidence and testimony taken that night.

If that's how it's worded you know Mara is going to be ALL over that. Good point. Where is this statement?

 

[LTC8K6]

If that's how it's worded you know Mara is going to be ALL over that. Good point. Where is this statement?

It was the statement released by the city in response to questions about the handling of the case.

It also says the dispatcher did not give a lawful order to Zimmerman regarding following Martin.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...YzbIfD&sig=AHIEtbSz4wOnJC_pRJqEp7QZtrBrCyl41g

As far as I know, the only new evidence they have is the claims of the girlfriend about what she heard over the phone, after a couple weeks, which can't be worth much in court.

 

[ugot2bekidding]

Nor is he required to judge the severity of the damage being done to his head before stopping an attack.

This.

I really don't get all this fuss over the severity of his injuries. It's entirely possible (even probable) that, in the heat of the moment, while getting your head bashed into the ground by a stranger, that you would feel your life is threatened. We're not talking about a simple shove here. So what if the injuries turned out to not be life threatening? What if he hadn't stopped him and the next head bash split his skull open?

 

[johnny karate]

Any Internet doctors still want to claim GZ didn't really have a broken nose ??

Maybe O'mara is bluffing ... since we haven't actually seen then medical records he is willing to give to the state. Anyone believe that ?

Wow, I bet those same medical records probably document the "scratches" to the back of his head.

First of all, I've never stated Zimmerman didn't have a broken nose. I only made the observation that it doesn't look like it in that video, but you can't really tell one way or the other:

I don't think there's any real damning evidence in that video to indicate Zimmerman didn't have a broken nose. (But there also isn't any evidence that he did). Aside from the low-resolution of the video, there are no real clear shots of his face. I don't think it looks like his nose is broken, but I can't tell for sure.

Secondly, you seem very dismissive of triforcharity's opinion regarding the cuts on Zimmerman's head. It's not as if he didn't give his reasons for the opinion he offered.

If you disagree with his assessment, are you able to offer anything to counter it other then a flippant hand-wave?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

This.

I really don't get all this fuss over the severity of his injuries. It's entirely possible (even probable) that, in the heat of the moment, while getting your head bashed into the ground by a stranger, that you would feel your life is threatened. We're not talking about a simple shove here. So what if the injuries turned out to not be life threatening? What if he hadn't stopped him and the next head bash split his skull open?

^ Yep ^

 

[TheL8Elvis]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation...543_21338348_10150678478076543#fa3233e318a0eb

Posted by Blake: This is not the real story. George called 911 to report a suspicious person. As he got off the phone the kid attacked him and started beating the crap out of him and slamming his head against the walkway. All the while saying "you're gunna die tonight motherxxxxxx". George was screaming help when someone in a nearby apartment called 911 again. George's shirt came up while the kid was beating him, revealing the gun that he is licensed to carry. The kid went for the gun and they struggled for it, George ended up shooting the kid and saving his own life. All these people on yahoo saying that he should be in jail when they don't even know what happened. George is the brother-in-law of one of our good family friends, works with my parents, and is one of the nicest most gentle people you will ever meet. He's completely devastated that this happened and has barely been functional from the guilt. No one shoots someone for no reason, and especially not George. And they need to stop pulling the race card, George is Hispanic, not white.

What point are you trying to make by posting this person's blatant misrepresentation of the facts?

Hmmm. Blatant misrepresentation of the facts ? Or plausible explanation of the events ?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

It was the statement released by the city in response to questions about the handling of the case.

It also says the dispatcher did not give a lawful order to Zimmerman regarding following Martin.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...YzbIfD&sig=AHIEtbSz4wOnJC_pRJqEp7QZtrBrCyl41g

As far as I know, the only new evidence they have is the claims of the girlfriend about what she heard over the phone, after a couple weeks, which can't be worth much in court.

WOW. I never saw that. It's especially amazing because in it they were being truthful about the 911 dispatcher and identified it as a suggestion GZ was not legally bound to follow, instead of the common spin of calling it an order. Yet back in court today I believe they were even trying to pretend it was an "order" again.

Yep, Mara is going to be ALL over that document.

 

[RandFan]

Nor is he required to judge the severity of the damage being done to his head before stopping an attack.

Let's be honest here, he only needs to claim to fear for his life to likely be cleared. If you have a gun and you shoot first, then even if the fear isn't reasonable, it's rather difficult to prove otherwise, how can Martin defend himself? Dead men tell no tales.

 

[johnny karate]

I really don't get all this fuss over the severity of his injuries.

Because Zimmerman's lawyer went on national television and told the world his wounds were serious enough to require stitches. Along with statements made by members of Zimmerman's family, this has created a narrative in which Zimmerman was the victim of a savage beating at the hands of Martin.

As evidence comes to light that disputes this claim, Zimmerman's credibility goes in the toilet. And considering that at this point all we have to substantiate Zimmerman's self-defense claim is his word, I'd say the issue of his credibility is pretty damn important.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. Good for you. I hope it was enjoyable. You scored a major victory. People on the Internet were wrong and you showed them.

It was enjoyable, thanks.

Don't you think it's useful to demonstrate how people are willing to make such bold and incorrect assertions based on such flimsy evidence ?

ETA: and its the 'certainly not broken' claim you should have quoted from yourself ;-)

 

[LTC8K6]

Because Zimmerman's lawyer went on national television and told the world his wounds were serious enough to require stitches. Along with statements made by members of Zimmerman's family, this has created a narrative in which Zimmerman was the victim of a savage beating at the hands of Martin.

As evidence comes to light that disputes this claim, Zimmerman's credibility goes in the toilet. And considering that at this point all we have to substantiate Zimmerman's self-defense claim is his word, I'd say the issue of his credibility is pretty damn important.

Can you link to the stitches claim from the lawyer?

I hadn't heard it before, except from myself.

 

[johnny karate]

Can you link to the stitches claim from the lawyer?

I hadn't heard it before, except from myself.

I believe that his nose was broken; he sustained injury to his nose and on the back of his head he sustained a cut that was serious enough it probably should have had stitches.

Link.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

First of all, I've never stated Zimmerman didn't have a broken nose. I only made the observation that it doesn't look like it in that video, but you can't really tell one way or the other:

So you did. I didn't read far enough to find that post, just so you know i wasn't trying to intentionally misrepresent your views.

Secondly, you seem very dismissive of triforcharity's opinion regarding the cuts on Zimmerman's head. It's not as if he didn't give his reasons for the opinion he offered.
If you disagree with his assessment, are you able to offer anything to counter it other then a flippant hand-wave?

I don't think I saw those posts.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

when the broken nose is documented...

Don't forget the media was also quoting some "expert" doctor who pronounced that the nose wasn't broken based on seeing that video. Another expert who was evidently so eager to be quoted in the media that he was willing to give an opinion on something he couldn't possibly determine from that video.

 

[LTC8K6]

Link.

The lawyer who was not his lawyer and only spoke over the phone briefly.

I don't think that claim counts for much, even though I agree with it for the cut on the right side of his head.

 

[johnny karate]

So you did. I didn't read far enough to find that post, just so you know i wasn't trying to intentionally misrepresent your views.

No harm, no foul. I just wanted my position on the broken nose to be accurately documented.

I don't think I saw those posts.

In a nutshell:

I don't see his wounds as being all that severe as Zimmerman et al. have claimed. I would love to see more detailed photos, but from the photo I have seen, that is my professional assessment.

If I see evidence that shows his injuries were more severe, I will not dispute that. But, based on the limited information that I have, his injuries do not appear severe at all.

He goes into greater detail in the preceding posts.

 

[LTC8K6]

Can a cut require stitches, but not bleed a lot?