Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[LTC8K6]

I'm not sure why you insist on calling them scratches, except to be unfair. They are wounds of undetermined severity.

One reporter said there is also a contusion visible in the actual photo, but what a reporter means by that is anyone's guess.

There's no requirement to wait for a more severe head wound.

 

[Freddy]

Well, the problem is Martin was in his late teens, so Zimmerman was able to make that call at a distance but got it wrong when he got closer? Are we to believe that Martin looked younger the farther way you got from him?

And then there's the issue of Zimmerman saying he didn't know if Martin was armed as a reason he was in fear for his life and/or shot him. Yet he told police it was because Martin was beating him and attempted to reach for his gun.

Quite frankly, it seems like Zimmerman was attempting to portray Martin as more threatening than he really was.

Well, initially he was guessing. If his story is true, he subsequently got his ass kicked by Martin. Perhaps that made him think he was older, because maybe he didn't think a 17 year old would be able to kick his ass so quickly and easily. That may not be a sound deduction, but what about Zimmerman suggests that he tends to make sound deductions? Also, it would fit with the idea that Zimmerman exhibits what someone in this thread referred to as "superhero syndrome," since it would suggest an over-estimation of his own toughness.

 

[triforcharity]

I can link to claims about it 'raining hard' if you would like ?

Raining hard for what? 30 seconds?

Doesn't matter Elvis. .01" in 2 hours time is not a heavy rain, no matter how much you want to bitch and complain about it. You're wanting to argue something that means nothing. You're welcome to argue that .01" of rain is alot all you want. But you'd still be ******* wrong. So just sit there in your wrongness and be wrong.

 

[Cylinder]

Actually, you're completely and UTTERLY wrong on this.

This was an active HOMICIDE crime scene. Preserving any evidence and securing the crime scene and anyone involved is the very FIRST priority. This was done according to the Police report. One officer went to check on Treyvon, and the other secured Zimmerman.

You're ignorance knows absolutely no bounds WRT: this thread topic....

Errr...you're a paramedic, right?

You arrive first on scene to a fresh GSW victim. What's your first priority and how do you effect that?

 

[johnny karate]

I'm not sure why you insist on calling them scratches, except to be unfair. They are wounds of undetermined severity.

I'm just going with what a medic who posts here determined:

If you put an antibiotic creme on something, and leave it uncovered, that's called a scratch.

If it had required no bandage, it would signify that it wasn't anything more than a superficial wound, and a band aid would have sufficed. (This is of course not practical on a head wound where the hair is. Super glue would have been more practical)

If you have evidence that wounds are more severe, I'd be interested to see it.

One reporter said there is also a contusion visible in the actual photo, but what a reporter means by that is anyone's guess.

There's no requirement to wait for a more severe head wound.

That's a well and good, but as I've stated numerous times, it's not about whether or not Zimmerman was injured. I've never denied that he might have been. It's about the claims made regarding the severity of those injuries, which included a possible need for stitches and the use of "two big, butterfly bandages".

My contention from the beginning was that these claims didn't square with the video footage of Zimmerman with no visible signs of injury or even so much as a band-aid. And now triforcharity - a medical professional - seems to agree with my assessment.

 

[triforcharity]

Thanks for your input, tri.

There was a debate earlier in the thread whether it would be unusual for a laceration to need a butterfly bandage the following day, but no bandage of any kind within an hour of being inflicted.

Welcome.

Here's my opinion. Butterfly bandages are not anything special really. Just above a bandaid. Here's my issue with it. BFB's don't stick well to hair. So, they would have had to shave his head to get them to stay. Could he have gone to the ER for this? Sure. But, they would use a medical glue if anything. Much easier to use, and much more reliable.

This stems from the fact that Zimmerman's neighbors reported seeing him with butterfly bandages the day after the incident, despite the fact that he didn't have any in the police surveillance video.

Agreed. I think it's an exaggeration of what was on his head, but I have no evidence to support this.

My contention is that the neighbors are mistaken, or Zimmerman staged it.

Care to comment?

Sure. I think he's making a show of it.

Also, have you seen the recently released photo of Zimmerman's injuries taken minutes after the incident?

http://gothamist.com/attachments/byakas/42012zimmemran1.jpg

Just curious to know your professional opinion on the severity of those injuries, and whether or not you think they warrant stitches.

It's hard to tell how serious they are. The one on the left side of his head, doesn't seem very serious at all. It isn't bleeding very profusely, and it doesn't appear to have any separation or swelling. However, the one on the right, does show some separation and some swelling. How deep it was is unknown. Neither appear to be bleeding all that bad. I am going to assume that there was never a bandage on the wound up to this point. If that's true, there is barely any blood at all, and not bleeding all that bad at all.

So, there's my opinion.



Oh, and you wanna see a head lac?

WARNING!!! GRAPHIC!!

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/6/75243de75b3e4d0bbfbd8dbe265c5221/l.jpg


And here's the results of such head lac. Blood everywhere.

GRAPHIC!!

http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/79/adfb60c8ef12448d9bb318a111d24d86/l.jpg


So, where's all Zimmerman's blood? I don't see any on his neck, nor any on his shirt collar area.

Odd that is.

 

[LTC8K6]

Why are we so concerned about the rain?

The rain can be quite variable depending on exactly where it is measured. It can easily rain .01" here and .25" not too far away.

It can easily rain a lot at the airport where it is often measured, and very little at your house a short distance away, and vice versa.

 

[triforcharity]

Wonderfully immature term. Welcome to ignore.

Now i'm butthurt......

 

[LTC8K6]

I'm just going with what a medic who posts here determined:



If you have evidence that wounds are more severe, I'd be interested to see it.



That's a well and good, but as I've stated numerous times, it's not about whether or not Zimmerman was injured. I've never denied that he might have been. It's about the claims made regarding the severity of those injuries, which included a possible need for stitches and the use of "two big, butterfly bandages".

My contention from the beginning was that these claims didn't square with the video footage of Zimmerman with no visible signs of injury or even so much as a band-aid. And now triforcharity - a medical professional - seems to agree with my assessment.

triforcharity is seems a tad biased against Zimmerman, though.

I'm sure we have reliable reports of Zimmerman's wounds, or lack thereof, that we will hear about soon enough.

There's no point in flatly calling them scratches, or flatly calling them gaping wounds.

They are wounds.

All we can determine is that reports that he was not wounded are false.

 

[triforcharity]

Errr...you're a paramedic, right?

You arrive first on scene to a fresh GSW victim. What's your first priority and how do you effect that?

Correct.


At least here at my department, we wait untill the local PD or SO tells us the scene is secure. Meaning, any shooter is not in sight, or in custody, and it's safe for us to enter the area.

By this time, a perimeter is usually set up, as securing a scene only takes a matter of a minute or two. Even if it's just moving people back, it's VERY high priority for an officer. Preserving evidence is the #1 priority, beyond catching a suspect.

My priority is split. Zimmerman is what I would call a WTW (Walking, talking, wounded) and can be dealt with in a few minutes, once I get a chance to check on any unresponsive or critical patients. I would have treated Treyvon with everything I could, and told an officer or another person on my crew to take care of Zimmerman.

 

[LTC8K6]

Welcome.

Here's my opinion. Butterfly bandages are not anything special really. Just above a bandaid. Here's my issue with it. BFB's don't stick well to hair. So, they would have had to shave his head to get them to stay. Could he have gone to the ER for this? Sure. But, they would use a medical glue if anything. Much easier to use, and much more reliable.



Agreed. I think it's an exaggeration of what was on his head, but I have no evidence to support this.



Sure. I think he's making a show of it.



It's hard to tell how serious they are. The one on the left side of his head, doesn't seem very serious at all. It isn't bleeding very profusely, and it doesn't appear to have any separation or swelling. However, the one on the right, does show some separation and some swelling. How deep it was is unknown. Neither appear to be bleeding all that bad. I am going to assume that there was never a bandage on the wound up to this point. If that's true, there is barely any blood at all, and not bleeding all that bad at all.

So, there's my opinion.



Oh, and you wanna see a head lac?

WARNING!!! GRAPHIC!!

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/6/75243de75b3e4d0bbfbd8dbe265c5221/l.jpg


And here's the results of such head lac. Blood everywhere.

GRAPHIC!!

http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/79/adfb60c8ef12448d9bb318a111d24d86/l.jpg


So, where's all Zimmerman's blood? I don't see any on his neck, nor any on his shirt collar area.

Odd that is.

Zimmerman was not in a traffic accident.

Nor is he required to judge the severity of the damage being done to his head before stopping an attack.

 

[johnny karate]

Welcome.

Here's my opinion. Butterfly bandages are not anything special really. Just above a bandaid. Here's my issue with it. BFB's don't stick well to hair. So, they would have had to shave his head to get them to stay. Could he have gone to the ER for this? Sure. But, they would use a medical glue if anything. Much easier to use, and much more reliable.



Agreed. I think it's an exaggeration of what was on his head, but I have no evidence to support this.



Sure. I think he's making a show of it.



It's hard to tell how serious they are. The one on the left side of his head, doesn't seem very serious at all. It isn't bleeding very profusely, and it doesn't appear to have any separation or swelling. However, the one on the right, does show some separation and some swelling. How deep it was is unknown. Neither appear to be bleeding all that bad. I am going to assume that there was never a bandage on the wound up to this point. If that's true, there is barely any blood at all, and not bleeding all that bad at all.

So, there's my opinion.



Oh, and you wanna see a head lac?

WARNING!!! GRAPHIC!!

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/6/75243de75b3e4d0bbfbd8dbe265c5221/l.jpg


And here's the results of such head lac. Blood everywhere.

GRAPHIC!!

http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/79/adfb60c8ef12448d9bb318a111d24d86/l.jpg


So, where's all Zimmerman's blood? I don't see any on his neck, nor any on his shirt collar area.

Odd that is.

Cheers.

 

[Cylinder]

Preserving evidence is the #1 priority, beyond catching a suspect.

Did you forget the step about assessing the GSW victim? I don't know what happened at that particular scene, but you would expect someone to have assessed Martin's wounds with the presumption of first aid, right? I mean, it wasn't a week-old corpse.

I don't think it's disputed by the police, Zimmerman or the witnesses that Martin was face down.

Am I missing something here?

 

[triforcharity]

Why are we so concerned about the rain?

The rain can be quite variable depending on exactly where it is measured. It can easily rain .01" here and .25" not too far away.

It can easily rain a lot at the airport where it is often measured, and very little at your house a short distance away, and vice versa.

While correct, Sanford uses 9 different stations to record weather events.

http://weather.weatherbug.com/FL/Sanford-weather/weather-station.html?zcode=z6286

Elvis contends that people walking in the rain is suspicious.

 

[johnny karate]

triforcharity is seems a tad biased against Zimmerman, though.

I'm sure we have reliable reports of Zimmerman's wounds, or lack thereof, that we will hear about soon enough.

There's no point in flatly calling them scratches, or flatly calling them gaping wounds.

They are wounds.

All we can determine is that reports that he was not wounded are false.

I'm not sure how "gaping wounds" is even on the table. Even to a layperson, those wounds are clearly not "gaping". And they clearly are not that big, nor did they produce a significant amount of blood.

A medical professional offered his opinion - and it strikes me as fairly even-handed. If you want to dismiss it because of perceived bias, that's your prerogative.

But let's not pretend the nature of Zimmerman's wounds are therefore unknowable. It's pretty obvious which way the evidence is pointing.

 

[johnny karate]

Zimmerman was not in a traffic accident.

Nor is he required to judge the severity of the damage being done to his head before stopping an attack.

Nope. But at the very least he could be honest about the severity of his wounds after the fact.

 

[triforcharity]

Zimmerman was not in a traffic accident.

I never claimed he was, but way to miss the ******* point.

My point with that is to show that is a semi-severe head lac in comparison Similar in location and blood trails down his head.

I posted the picture of the inside of his vehicle to show that there is blood EVERYWHERE! I mean, that headliner is COVERED in blood.

And yet, it seems that 3 minutes after Zimmerman fired a fatal shot, his shirt doesn't even appear to have any blood on it.

Nor is he required to judge the severity of the damage being done to his head before stopping an attack.

I never claimed that. Nice strawman. He does however have to have a REASONABLE fear, and what appears to be nothing more than a simple fistfight, I don't agree that he has a reasonable fear of great bodily harm.

But hey, it's cool.

 

[triforcharity]

Did you forget the step about assessing the GSW victim? I don't know what happened at that particular scene, but you would expect someone to have assessed Martin's wounds with the presumption of first aid, right? I mean, it wasn't a week-old corpse.

I don't think it's disputed by the police, Zimmerman or the witnesses that Martin was face down.

Am I missing something here?

No, that was in regards to the police's procedures. Sorry, I wasn't clear, that's my fault.

They are first responders typically, but don't do much beyond initial assessment. That is what the FD/EMT's/Medics are for.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'm not sure how "gaping wounds" is even on the table. Even to a layperson, those wounds are clearly not "gaping". And they clearly are not that big, nor did they produce a significant amount of blood.

A medical professional offered his opinion - and it strikes me as fairly even-handed. If you want to dismiss it because of perceived bias, that's your prerogative.

But let's not pretend the nature of Zimmerman's wounds are therefore unknowable. It's pretty obvious which way the evidence is pointing.

The fact is, the media crowed that Zimmerman was a liar and had no wounds.

We have no idea how much blood the wounds produced. We don't know if the wounds have been wiped already when that pic was taken. We don't know if Zimmerman held his hand on them and stemmed the blood flow at first. We don't know if a bystander tried to help him with the wounds.

We have a still photo proving that Zimmerman had wounds to the back of his head at the time and place expected with his story, which is evidence in his favor.

 

[Cylinder]

He does however have to have a REASONABLE fear, and what appears to be nothing more than a simple fistfight, I don't agree that he has a reasonable fear of great bodily harm.

But the police admit that the evidence on the scene points to Zimmerman's head being beat against the sidewalk. Of course, simple fistfight is subjective, but in my neck o' the woods it doesn't include beating a prone person's head into the sidewalk. I've never been to Philly, though.