Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[TheL8Elvis]

I don't think that's how it works. I don't see the same things in the video you do.

The video is not inconsistent with GZ story. The lack of bandages is, I think , neutral.

Nor do I believe the police report is completely accurate.

Well, we haven't really seen the entire thing. I am going strictly off the claim the police report says fat lip, bloody nose, bleeding from the back of the head.

Who told him "should have gotten stitches"?

That was reported by Sonner (fmr atty) on a tv interview. Lawrence Odonnel maybe ? And that was Sonner saying 'GZ told me the hospital said ..." So it was like double hearsay or something

If he really needed them and wasn't treated properly, he certainly has a case against both the medical responder and the SPD.

He declined to go to the hospital, and that is required to be documented by EMT as I understand it. So, I don't think he has a legit complaint in that regard.

I don't believe any of the witnesses got a close look at GZ that night. They might have seen him the next day but that's irrelevant. Since we don't know the extent of his injuries, how can you assume his story is correct?

Because to the dismay of some here ... that is how I have decided to approach this case. I'm waiting for GZ story to fall apart. If he is lying, his story will fall apart. So far, it hasn't.

I don't have a clue what happened that night except a young man was shot and killed. Regardless of the law, GZ must prove he was in fear for his life. I don't see how that can be true, based on statements by some of his own family!

We have many clues about what happened. We have timelines, calls, witnesses. We will likely never know the EXACT truth, but I think it's wrong to believe we can never know more than what you state above.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Now I can't wait for all the internet doctors to chime in and claim that GZ was lying when his atty claimed he was told his injuries should have had stitches. It's why I tried to nip it in the bud last night, asking what what count as serious...

So, basically, minor injury.

Well, that didn't take long.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

So, IOW, everything is still consistent with GZ story ? Injury to the head, close range shot ?

Meh. I don't doubt they scuffled, Z got some sort of injury and shot TM at close range, probably in the middle of the scuffle when he realized he was losing the fight.

I do, however, personally doubt that TM just attacked Z out of nowhere. It just doesn't make much sense to me. Given Z's state of mind leading up to the fight, I think it most likely that Z was the one who started the physical confrontation (my bet would be that Z tried to restrain TM).

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You will choose to see it however you want. I find the angle of the blood to be a little interesting. I also wonder who he's on the phone with less than 3 minutes after the shooting.

So you see this as being inconsistent with his story ? That I've somehow made a choice to see this as consistent, when it's actually something else?

What exactly is "interesting" about the blood ?

As to the call - His wife ?
The photographer said that after the shooting, Zimmerman asked the photographer to call his wife.

I have questions. I'd like to see them answered. That's all I care about. I can't rejoice that a young man is dead and another man's life is ruined at age 28. There's nothing good here.

I was under the impression that pretty much everyone here agrees with those sentiments.

The report states that the witness saw gunshot residue on TM's hoodie. If TM was shot in the chest and his body ended up laying on his back, how would the witness see the residue on the front of the hoodie?

I think you meant laying on his front, not back. But I think the obvious answer is they rolled him over ?

 

[Mumbles]

Meh. I don't doubt they scuffled, Z got some sort of injury and shot TM at close range, probably in the middle of the scuffle when he realized he was losing the fight.

I do, however, personally doubt that TM just attacked Z out of nowhere. It just doesn't make much sense to me. Given Z's state of mind leading up to the fight, I think it most likely that Z was the one who started the physical confrontation (my bet would be that Z tried to restrain TM).

I've said this before, but as much as people want to claim that tailing random people is perfectly acceptable behavior, it's not. It's threatening behavior, and if Zimmerman got within striking distance while doing so, then it was Martin who was defending himself by throwing the first punch - and I see no problem with him doing so. And the story where Zimmerman was just looking for a street sign, and somehow ended up being attacked in an open walkway between houses, is laughable. If that's Zimmerman's story, then he's lying.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Meh. I don't doubt they scuffled, Z got some sort of injury and shot TM at close range, probably in the middle of the scuffle when he realized he was losing the fight.

I do, however, personally doubt that TM just attacked Z out of nowhere. It just doesn't make much sense to me. Given Z's state of mind leading up to the fight, I think it most likely that Z was the one who started the physical confrontation (my bet would be that Z tried to restrain TM).

Then I'll ask you the same thing I have yet to hear a reasonable answer for. Why couldn't TM make it home in the time GZ was on the phone to 911, especially after he said he didn't know where TM was. At that point, TM had to likely travel 250 feet to be safe at home to get away. The fact that he didn't doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[KatieG]

So you see this as being inconsistent with his story ? That I've somehow made a choice to see this as consistent, when it's actually something else?

What exactly is "interesting" about the blood ?

As to the call - His wife ?
The photographer said that after the shooting, Zimmerman asked the photographer to call his wife.



I was under the impression that pretty much everyone here agrees with those sentiments.



I think you meant laying on his front, not back. But I think the obvious answer is they rolled him over ?

Yes, I corrected my post again

Do you mean the witness turned TM over? I don't think so. I also doubt the police would allow bystanders to get that close once they began work on the body.

 

[KatieG]

Then I'll ask you the same thing I have yet to hear a reasonable answer for. Why couldn't TM make it home in the time GZ was on the phone to 911, especially after he said he didn't know where TM was. At that point, TM had to likely travel 250 feet to be safe at home to get away. The fact that he didn't doesn't make any sense to me.

Maybe TM was worried about this pinhead following him. If I were being followed by a stranger, I wouldn't lead them right to my house.

TM is the victim here. He can't tell you what happened because he's dead! Until the forensics are made public, why TM did what he did is useless speculation. Putting the onus on him to go straight home doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So what specifically about this case makes you think Zimmerman is incapable of behaving irrationally?

Nothing. It's always possible.
And if you think he's guilty, I can never escape the conjecture of 'well, of course a guilty person would act like X'

So the EMTs thought Zimmerman's lacerations warranted a trip to the hospital. Zimmerman declined. The EMTs shrugged, and handed him a tube of Neosporin because... what? They forgot to bring the bandages?

Again, IDK. Bandages certainly would have eliminated the need for all these posts.

Something else to consider is the question of why Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital. I'm sure he was anxious to get to jail, but if he had lacerations severe enough to need stitching up in the emergency room, he must have at least felt how much he was bleeding (even though all that blood inexplicably avoided touching his clothes). Why not heed the advice of medical professionals and just go to the hospital?

Or... maybe he wasn't injured that severely, and only realized the next day a trip to the hospital might help his case.

This, in my opinion, is your confirmation bias at work.
Of course GZ, being guilty, was already plotting to go to the hospital the next day so he could find a willing accomplice to lie abou this injuries after they were already documented by the EMTs.

I can't even imagine his state of mind after just shooting and killing someone. Not going to the hospital doesn't really have to make sense to me for it to be a plausible scenario, honestly.

I don't know how detailed such a report would be. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Well, it's too bad you didn't answer that question better last night.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

Then I'll ask you the same thing I have yet to hear a reasonable answer for. Why couldn't TM make it home in the time GZ was on the phone to 911, especially after he said he didn't know where TM was. At that point, TM had to likely travel 250 feet to be safe at home to get away. The fact that he didn't doesn't make any sense to me.

TM thought that he had lost GZ or that GZ had stopped following him, then just stayed on the phone and meandered around while talking to his GF? That doesn't seem particularly unreasonable to me. According to his GF, it seems that TM thought he wasn't being followed anymore because he expressed surprise when GZ appeared again quickly followed by a verbal confrontation.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yes, I corrected my post again

Do you mean the witness turned TM over? I don't think so. I also doubt the police would allow bystanders to get that close once they began work on the body.

No, sorry. I meant someone like the police rolled him over. I would also think they worried about first aid and checking out the boy on the ground more than shooing people away at that point ?

Maybe TM was worried about this pinhead following him. If I were being followed by a stranger, I wouldn't lead them right to my house.

What pinhead ? Oh, GZ. I see. Are you channeling Lefty this morning ?

So ... TM doubled back towards 711 ? Hid behind one of the 6 inch trees ? What did he do for 4 minutes instead of going to the safety of his home ? He was too scared to go home, but not scared enough to get any kind of help ? Go to a well lit area ? Knock on the neighbors door ?

You have see plenty of maps and pictures of the subdivision.... what exactly do you think he did ?

TM is the victim here.

Because you assume GZ is guilty.

He can't tell you what happened because he's dead! Until the forensics are made public, why TM did what he did is useless speculation.

I disagree that it's useless.

Putting the onus on him to go straight home doesn't make any sense to me.

That's fine. We can agree to disagree. I tell my kids if they feel uncomfortable in that kind of situation to get to a safe place. I wonder what TM parents told him to do, and why he didn't do what seems to be common sense to me.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

TM thought that he had lost GZ or that GZ had stopped following him, then just stayed on the phone and meandered around while talking to his GF? That doesn't seem particularly unreasonable to me.

That's possible. If he thought he lost GZ, I would think he would continue on home the last two hundred feet to home to deliver his skittles. Or be close to home so he could run inside to safety. Not stand outside in the dark, in the rain, after he was just followed by a strange guy.

We'll have to disagree, because standing out there seems far from reasonable to me.

 

[KatieG]

No, sorry. I meant someone like the police rolled him over. I would also think they worried about first aid and checking out the boy on the ground more than shooing people away at that point ?



What pinhead ? Oh, GZ. I see. Are you channeling Lefty this morning ?

So ... TM doubled back towards 711 ? Hid behind one of the 6 inch trees ? What did he do for 4 minutes instead of going to the safety of his home ? He was too scared to go home, but not scared enough to get any kind of help ? Go to a well lit area ? Knock on the neighbors door ?

You have see plenty of maps and pictures of the subdivision.... what exactly do you think he did ?



Because you assume GZ is guilty.



I disagree that it's useless.



That's fine. We can agree to disagree. I tell my kids if they feel uncomfortable in that kind of situation to get to a safe place. I wonder what TM parents told him to do, and why he didn't do what seems to be common sense to me.

'
You are not TM or his parents. I would say you are above the age of 18 so what seems like common sense to you may be different to a 17 yo. Amazing you are willing to sit in judgement on that one aspect.

I'm sure the police cleared the area as soon as they got there. Damn right they would shoo people away from the body. If they were trying to help TM, they would be crowded around his body, most likely obscuring the view of bystanders.

It would appear you don't think GZ did anything wrong so obviously we must agree to disagree.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

That's possible. If he thought he lost GZ, I would think he would continue on home the last two hundred feet to home to deliver his skittles.

Meh.. To me it doesn't seem unreasonable that if he thought he lost GZ or thought GZ wasn't following him, he'd get over his fear and prefer to hang around outside talking to his GF rather than either going home and abandoning the phone call or going home and talking to her with other people around.

It might not have been the smartest thing to do, and the GF does seem to have been urging him to just go home. But nobody said teenage boys are particularly bright when it comes to girls.

Also, assuming that TM was actually talking on the phone with GF right before the confrontation, it seems even less likely to me that TM would have just attacked GZ out of nowhere when he's talking with someone on the phone.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Maybe TM was worried about this pinhead following him. If I were being followed by a stranger, I wouldn't lead them right to my house.

For the love of God would you people stop saying this, it makes you look silly . The lengths to which some of you are going to invent views that confirm what you want to believe is amazing.

If I'm a block from my home and someone is following me in the dark that I think may want to rob me or do me harm I'm going to book my ass home and get in my front door as fast as humanly possible. What sane person (in fear and being followed) would think "gee, I better stay out here in the dark with this strange person and give them every opportunity to do harm to me because I don't want them knowing where I live". Seriously??

Why can't you just admit it's very strange and that you don't know why he stayed out there and leave it at that? Wouldn't that be the reasonable position to take? Or is it because that would force you to admit in the back of your mind that maybe, just maybe, it's possible there is more to the story, and you don't want to have to entertain that?

 

[KatieG]

For the love of God would you people stop saying this, it makes you look silly . The lengths to which some of you are going to invent views that confirm what you want to believe is amazing.

If I'm a block from my home and someone is following me in the dark that I think may want to rob me or do me harm I'm going to book my ass home and get in my front door as fast as humanly possible. I'm not going to think "gee, I better stay out here in the dark with this strange person and give them every opportunity to do harm to me because I don't want them knowing where I live".

Why can't you just admit it's very strange and that you don't know why he stayed out there and leave it at that? Wouldn't that be the reasonable position to take? Or is it because that would force you to admit in the back of your mind that maybe, just maybe, it's possible there is more to the story, and you don't want to have to entertain that?

I deliberately used the word maybe. Maybe he was lost. He didn't live there. Maybe he was waiting for GZ so he could jump him and beat the crap out of him.

I can imagine all types of scenarios that would account for what happened that night. I have a vivid imagination. That doesn't mean I'm not capable of sorting out information.

 

[crimresearch]

I've said this before, but as much as people want to claim that tailing random people is perfectly acceptable behavior, it's not. It's threatening behavior, and if Zimmerman got within striking distance while doing so, then it was Martin who was defending himself by throwing the first punch - and I see no problem with him doing so. And the story where Zimmerman was just looking for a street sign, and somehow ended up being attacked in an open walkway between houses, is laughable. If that's Zimmerman's story, then he's lying.

As a blanket statement, that is simply not true under the law, or common sense...
you don't get to punch out anyone who follows you simply for following you, or even for asking you a question.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Meh.. To me it doesn't seem unreasonable that if he thought he lost GZ or thought GZ wasn't following him, he'd get over his fear and prefer to hang around outside talking to his GF rather than either going home and abandoning the phone call or going home and talking to her with other people around.

It might not have been the smartest thing to do, and the GF does seem to have been urging him to just go home. But nobody said teenage boys are particularly bright when it comes to girls.

Also, assuming that TM was actually talking on the phone with GF right before the confrontation, it seems even less likely to me that TM would have just attacked GZ out of nowhere when he's talking with someone on the phone.

^^^There you go^^^. No need to invent silly theories about how he didn't want someone knowing where he lived. Or maybe he didn't perceive GZ to be that much of a threat? One thing that I don't think I've ever seen mentioned once is would it really be that surprising if TM, being black, actually assumed he was being profiled as a possible criminal and followed by someone in the neighborhood? Black people grow up being used to this, so is it possible that he suspected that's what GZ was up to?

 

[Mumbles]

^^^There you go^^^. No need to invent silly theories about how he didn't want someone knowing where he lived. Or maybe he didn't perceive GZ to be that much of a threat? One thing that I don't think I've ever seen mentioned once is would it really be that surprising if TM, being black, actually assumed he was being profiled as a possible criminal and followed by someone in the neighborhood? Black people grow up being used to this, so is it possible that he suspected that's what GZ was up to?

I'm sorry, not letting some weirdo follow you home is a "silly theory"?

 

[KatieG]

^^^There you go^^^. No need to invent silly theories about how he didn't want someone knowing where he lived. Or maybe he didn't perceive GZ to be that much of a threat? One thing that I don't think I've ever seen mentioned once is would it really be that surprising if TM, being black, actually assumed he was being profiled as a possible criminal and followed by someone in the neighborhood? Black people grow up being used to this, so is it possible that he suspected that's what GZ was up to?

I posted that idea several pages ago. He's 17 yo, out on his own for a while, he has a cellphone and we know he was talking to his girlfriend. I'd want to stay out for a while if I could. It was still early in the evening.

As far as your overreaction to the concept of someone not leading a stranger to their home, you are obviously not a woman. Back in the days before cellphones, strangers following me was scary. I had someone follow me on the interstate from one city to another, just to tell me how beautiful I was. He pulled into the gas station after me and followed me inside to tell me that! I was so glad there were other people present. And believe me, I'm not that beautiful. There are all kinds of screwed up people in this world and way too many of them carry a gun without a clue when to use it properly.

Maybe TM was taught growing up that being profiled. What a sad commentary on growing up black.