• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes, I'd venture to say that people who have become experts in this field know how to compare two recordings accurately, even though they are different recording devices saying different things or doing things like singing or screaming.
Since that goes against all the science that has been linked to in this thread including the standards of the forensic voice organizations themselves, I guess you just choose to believe it regardless of whether there's any evidence it can be done.
 
Celox First Aid
You can rely on Celox™ to stop bleeding when you need it most. Celox's™ clotting action is independent of the bodies normal clotting processes.

<snip>

Celox™ First Aid products are easy to use (just pour, pack and apply pressure), and extremely effective. When mixed with blood, Celox™ forms a gel like clot in 30 seconds.
http://www.celoxmedical.com/prods_firstaid.htm

Gainesville Florida PD using Celox in 2009:
http://www.alligator.org/news/local/article_7a650a65-dfa9-58c5-aef5-384499ff0ed5.html

I know of a few different products similar to this one.

EMT's and Paramedics in Florida rarely use them.
 
Zimmerman is asking to meet with the Martins.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/trayvo...uest-for-private-meeting-with-accused/1225872

I just don't know what this guy is thinking. And what about his lawyer? His lawyer will let him go and spout off again?

Wow. That's a really bad idea. I suppose it reflects well on him that he feels terrible about what happened (that seems the most likely reason for him to want to talk to them). And it also makes the intent element of a 2nd degree murder charge look even more dubious. But anything he says would be admissible at his trial. You never know what statements might be used to make you look guilty, even if you are innocent. I imagine his lawyers will threaten to withdraw if he insists on going through with it. He's already had one lawyer withdraw because he made statements to the prosecutor without consulting counsel.
 
Last edited:
Wow. That's a really bad idea. I suppose it reflects well on him that he feels terrible about what happened (that seems the most likely reason for him to want to talk to them). And it also makes the intent element of a 2nd degree murder charge look even more dubious. But anything he says would be admissible at his trial. You never know what statements might be used to make you look guilty, even if you are innocent. I imagine his lawyers will threaten to withdraw if he insists on going through with it. He's already had one lawyer withdraw because he made statements to the prosecutor without consulting counsel.

It just further solidifies in my mind the impression that George Zimmerman is not a reasonable person who makes good decisions. His life is a trail of confrontations and weird reactions to life events.

*That doesn't mean he's guilty, but it does mean that the usual presumption that "hey, he wouldn't have done X, that'd be insane!" shouldn't necessarily apply to things George does.
 
It just further solidifies in my mind the impression that George Zimmerman is not a reasonable person who makes good decisions. His life is a trail of confrontations and weird reactions to life events.

*That doesn't mean he's guilty, but it does mean that the usual presumption that "hey, he wouldn't have done X, that'd be insane!" shouldn't necessarily apply to things George does.

He certainly doesn't seem very savvy, does he? I agree with you that he seems to have rather poor judgment. Of course, as you mention, whether he is generally reasonable is not relevant to the question of whether a reasonable person would have feared serious injury or death were they in the same position Zimmerman was in when he fired his gun (I assume that's what you meant when you said it doesn't mean he's guilty).
 
I don't think he ran to the ER to get additional proof of his injuries after having been treated and documented by EMTS and likely the police. I don't find that plausible.

You don't find it plausible that someone with a murder charge hanging over their head would do anything possible to lessen the likelihood of going to prison no matter how irrational those actions might seem in hindsight?

Our prisons are filled with people caught because they made irrational decisions in a futile attempt to hide their crimes.

If anything, it would be implausible to expect completely rational behavior from Zimmerman in this situation.

Why do you think the EMTs were going to take him to the hospital ? For his non-existent injuries ?

As a precautionary measure, I would think. Zimmerman claimed to have had his head repeatedly slammed on the ground. A concussion or more serious head trauma can be difficult to diagnose in the field.

But of course now you're arguing that the same EMTs who thought his lacerations were severe enough to warrant a trip to the hospital just decided to slap some antibiotic on them and send him on his way.

How do you suppose they went from "Hey, you should probably go to the hospital for that" to "Never mind, here's a little Bactine"?
 
He certainly doesn't seem very savvy, does he? I agree with you that he seems to have rather poor judgment. Of course, as you mention, whether he is generally reasonable is not relevant to the question of whether a reasonable person would have feared serious injury or death were they in the same position Zimmerman was in when he fired his gun (I assume that's what you meant when you said it doesn't mean he's guilty).
Says all that really needs to be said until some new information comes along, doesn't it?
 
You certainly have a point, but note that the legal standard for self-defense is not entirely dependent on the severity of the injuries actually suffered. If Zimmerman reasonably believed that he would suffer severe bodily injury or death if he did not resort deadly force, then he has a legally sufficient self-defense claim. If, when he fired the shot, he reasonably believed that he was defenseless and had no means of escape, then he was not required to assume that the beating would stop short of "death or serious bodily injury," even if he had not already suffered serious injury at that point.

The issue is whether he reasonably feared death or serious bodily injury, not whether he actually suffered serious bodily injury. Obviously, if his injuries were in fact severe, that would pretty much prove that his fear of serious injury was reasonable. But just because his injuries were not severe, that doesn't establish that he was unreasonable in fearing that he would suffer serious injury or death if he did not use deadly force. Many people who kill in perfectly legitimate self-defense do not suffer any actual injury.

That said, any evidence that he is being less than honest would certainly tend to discredit his entire account. So if it can be shown that he deliberately exaggerated the extent of his injuries, that would tend to cast doubt on his credibility in general. But in that case, what would matter would not be the fact that his injuries were not severe, but rather the fact that in exaggerating his injuries he would have exhibited dishonesty.

Yeah, it's that last part that's important for me. I know the nature of his injuries has no bearing on the legality of his self-defense claim. It's all about his credibility. I think Zimmerman's story is suspect on its face, and the more information that comes out about him, the less credible he becomes.
 
Last edited:
He certainly doesn't seem very savvy, does he? I agree with you that he seems to have rather poor judgment. Of course, as you mention, whether he is generally reasonable is not relevant to the question of whether a reasonable person would have feared serious injury or death were they in the same position Zimmerman was in when he fired his gun (I assume that's what you meant when you said it doesn't mean he's guilty).

Correct on overall guilt, but it goes to show that people who claim he would NEVER have tried to enhance his injuries or even just put on a phony bandages in order to bolster his claims, are projecting their own behavior onto that of an unstable person. They shouldn't.
 
You don't find it plausible that someone with a murder charge hanging over their head would do anything possible to lessen the likelihood of going to prison no matter how irrational those actions might seem in hindsight?

It's certainly possible.But no, I don't find it plausible in this case, considering all the circumstances as I know them now.

As a precautionary measure, I would think. Zimmerman claimed to have had his head repeatedly slammed on the ground. A concussion or more serious head trauma can be difficult to diagnose in the field.

I would hope they would expect to see some kind of injury backing up that claim before they offered to take him to the hospital. After all, you were concerned about them using a product that costs more than a butterfly bandage.

But of course now you're arguing that the same EMTs who thought his lacerations were severe enough to warrant a trip to the hospital just decided to slap some antibiotic on them and send him on his way.

No, I think he declined to go, as he is allowed, and the EMT's documented it as they are required to.

So one day, in the future, when we see the EMT records, what is it we have to see to determine the extent of GZ injuries ? I am actually just curious, so one of us can say 'meh , I told you so' at some point.
 
Correct on overall guilt, but it goes to show that people who claim he would NEVER have tried to enhance his injuries or even just put on a phony bandages in order to bolster his claims, are projecting their own behavior onto that of an unstable person. They shouldn't.

I agree there is some truth to that. :)
 
So one day, in the future, when we see the EMT records, what is it we have to see to determine the extent of GZ injuries ? I am actually just curious, so one of us can say 'meh , I told you so' at some point.

After the bond hearing, isn't there some sort of preliminary hearing? Won't we see some evidence there? I don't think they talk about evidence at bond hearings. I think it's all about the crime and flight risk, etc.
 
After the bond hearing, isn't there some sort of preliminary hearing? Won't we see some evidence there? I don't think they talk about evidence at bond hearings. I think it's all about the crime and flight risk, etc.

That is correct. The stand your ground law technically provides an immunity, meaning that Zimmerman is entitled to a pretrial hearing and can avoid a trial if he can establish by a preponderance of the evidence that his use of force was lawful. The burden of proof is on Zimmerman, but he only has to prove his defense by a preponderance standard (basically, at least slightly more likely than not). But the burden of proof is on the defendant only in the pretrial hearing. If the case goes to trial, the state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the use of force was unlawful.
 
Last edited:
I'm trying to elicit some sort of admission that there are experts who can identify voices on tape. If the DA uses someone other than Owen, is that enough? What if they bring in the FBI (federal FBI or "Florida" FBI)?
Let me turn that around. What if the defense finds an expert, possibly former FBI, will that be enough for you?

Forensic audio voice analysis seems like it could definitely be helpful in some situations but two experts totally ignored their own professional guidelines to make a media hyped declaration in this case. I dunno if that was just bad luck or the nature of the field but it will make me extremely suspicious of future audio experts.

However, the main thing is getting an actual exemplar of Zimmerman's voice. He has a kind of sing song inflection and might when screaming sound very similar to the 911 screams. Or maybe not. Hopefully someone will also find a TM voice sample (voicemail perhaps) which won't be ideal but will still be helpful. I want to hear those comparison for myself. I might be swayed by expert opinion if I knew a reason to trust it over my own, but so far I do not.

Obviously, the ability to analyze sound waves using computers is something we see all the time. We can download free apps. The software I program in, Flash, has a built in API to read wave data, and that's just kid's stuff compared to professional software designed for the task.
Tell me what you think the best professional software is and I'll test it. I might already have it, except for that Easy Voice Biometrics program which has an unheard of price of five grand and no demo/test version. :(

There are companies like Visa who were apparently getting into this a decade ago:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/106142/visa_gets_behind_voice_recognition.html
Ten year old articles are not the most convincing way to demonstrate the technology that must be around today. I'm certain the NSA and some banking companies are doing interesting stuff with voice biometrics but nobody is matching a few stressed out screams with "scientific certainty".

That was ten years ago. I think people are just whistling past the graveyard on this. If that scream wasn't Zimmerman, it will be proven in court. The DA specifically mentioned that in her affidavit, so I think they asked that question early on and got some experts to weigh in.
I was just whistling and found myself in the middle of graveyard.
 
It's certainly possible.But no, I don't find it plausible in this case, considering all the circumstances as I know them now.

So what specifically about this case makes you think Zimmerman is incapable of behaving irrationally?

I would hope they would expect to see some kind of injury backing up that claim before they offered to take him to the hospital. After all, you were concerned about them using a product that costs more than a butterfly bandage.

One of the reasons I criticized the Celox theory is that it's unnecessarily more expensive than a simple butterfly bandage.

Is there a cheaper more obvious method for diagnosing, say, an intracranial hemorrhage in the field?

No, I think he declined to go, as he is allowed, and the EMT's documented it as they are required to.

So the EMTs thought Zimmerman's lacerations warranted a trip to the hospital. Zimmerman declined. The EMTs shrugged, and handed him a tube of Neosporin because... what? They forgot to bring the bandages?

Something else to consider is the question of why Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital. I'm sure he was anxious to get to jail, but if he had lacerations severe enough to need stitching up in the emergency room, he must have at least felt how much he was bleeding (even though all that blood inexplicably avoided touching his clothes). Why not heed the advice of medical professionals and just go to the hospital?

Or... maybe he wasn't injured that severely, and only realized the next day a trip to the hospital might help his case.

So one day, in the future, when we see the EMT records, what is it we have to see to determine the extent of GZ injuries ? I am actually just curious, so one of us can say 'meh , I told you so' at some point.

I don't know how detailed such a report would be. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom