Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[curi0us]

Oh, don't worry about it. I spend absolutely no time trying to disprove the claims of other people that they have failed to prove in the first place.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Totally mundane claims require about the level of evidence I supplied.

No, but I'm not the one making specific claims about how the EMTs might have treated Zimmerman.

Yes you have, you've argued that they would only use butterfly bandages and that celox first aid products are too expensive.

Was that the same hair Zimmerman had the next day when it was reported he had bandages on his head? Or do you imagine he had some different, stickier hair by then?

Which part of "shaving his head" confused you here? He seems to regularly shave his head so it's very plausible/possible.

Also, if the EMTs couldn't get the bandages to stick to Zimmerman's head without use of a head wrap, why do you suppose they didn't just apply a head wrap?

Because they had Celox?

I dunno, maybe the used gauze (regular or celox) and would have done proper bandaging but the wound stopped bleeding (for whatever reason) and the police wanted to take him to station and they figured he was good enough to go.

And the fact that you think that has what significance?

Just trying to correct a mistake you had made in reading my precious post.

The instructions on my shampoo bottle say "Rinse and repeat". So according to your logic, the appropriate way to wash my hair is to never stop washing my hair because that is the recommended use.

LOL
I can't even follow where that is coming from but those diabolically irrational shampoo people piss me off too.

How about evidence that Celox is commonly used by EMTs for treatment of wounds similar to those claimed by Zimmerman?

One only need read the headline of your cite to see a major discrepancy:
I'm fairly certain Zimmerman's injuries weren't life-threatening.

Perhaps if the headline had read "Local police use blood-clotting agent because they just couldn't get the darn bandage to stick" you might have had a point.

Also, the text of the article further diminishes your case:
Oops.

Perhaps the SWAT team medic being quoted never encountered hair quite as resistant to adhesive as George Zimmerman's.

I give you props for researching the article but you didn't consider that Celox is a brand name and the product I posted was different. The original stop pleading powders were emergency only mostly military items because of their side effects. What I linked to is a second generation version that seems to be very safe and is coming into more common use for any bleeding wound.

Do you honestly think the use of Celox is more plausible/possible than Zimmerman exaggerating the severity of his injuries?

Hmm. That is a very complicated question.

I think it is unlikely that the police lied about his nose and head bleeding. I also think Cutcher and her roommate describe someone with a head wound possibly acting concussed. I also think if the screamer was Zimmerman the sound of his screams are good evidence of injury by themselves. However none of those things require celox to have been used or preclude Zimmerman from exaggerating his injuries.

 

[johnny karate]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Totally mundane claims require about the level of evidence I supplied.


Yes you have, you've argued that they would only use butterfly bandages and that celox first aid products are too expensive.


Which part of "shaving his head" confused you here? He seems to regularly shave his head so it's very plausible/possible.


Because they had Celox?

I dunno, maybe the used gauze (regular or celox) and would have done proper bandaging but the wound stopped bleeding (for whatever reason) and the police wanted to take him to station and they figured he was good enough to go.


Just trying to correct a mistake you had made in reading my precious post.


LOL
I can't even follow where that is coming from but those diabolically irrational shampoo people piss me off too.


I give you props for researching the article but you didn't consider that Celox is a brand name and the product I posted was different. The original stop pleading powders were emergency only mostly military items because of their side effects. What I linked to is a second generation version that seems to be very safe and is coming into more common use for any bleeding wound.


Hmm. That is a very complicated question.

I think it is unlikely that the police lied about his nose and head bleeding. I also think Cutcher and her roommate describe someone with a head wound possibly acting concussed. I also think if the screamer was Zimmerman the sound of his screams are good evidence of injury by themselves. However none of those things require celox to have been used or preclude Zimmerman from exaggerating his injuries.

That's all great, but it's over. Your Celox claim has been debunked by both your own cite and a resident EMT.

Here it is again, in case you missed it:

"It is not meant for the little scrapes and boo-boos," he said. "It is a resort of last means that clots arterial bleeding when nothing else is working."

and:

I know of a few different products similar to this one.

EMT's and Paramedics in Florida rarely use them.

Let me know when you have actual evidence that the EMTs used Celox, until then we'll just sweep this nonsense into the dustbin of improbable and unsubstantiated claims made to defend George Zimmerman.

Which leaves us with "maybe the bandages fell off" as the leading contender to explain the inconsistencies between what evidence shows and what the claims are regarding Zimmerman's injuries.

 

[KatieG]

GZ claimed he was punched in the face and had his head hit against the sidewalk. That's pretty much what we know from the police report. Aside from that, his (former) atty claims a broken nose and that GZ was told 'he should have had stitches'

GZ story is consistent with the injuries he claims.
The police report is consistent with the injuries he claimed.
Witness claims are consistent with the injuries claimed.
The video is consistent with the injuries he claimed.

I don't find it to be particularly biased or bending over backward to believe his claim. I already linked to a video of Kobe bryant getting his nose broken that same evening, with little blood, and he finished the game. The only 'measurement' of his injury has been the comment 'should have gotten stitches'.

If you consider the description of his lacerations an exaggeration, you are basing the extent of GZ injuries on your medical background and few seconds of a low resolution video.

I should believe you over all that other consistent evidence ?

I don't think that's how it works. I don't see the same things in the video you do. Nor do I believe the police report is completely accurate. Who told him "should have gotten stitches"? If he really needed them and wasn't treated properly, he certainly has a case against both the medical responder and the SPD.

I don't believe any of the witnesses got a close look at GZ that night. They might have seen him the next day but that's irrelevant. Since we don't know the extent of his injuries, how can you assume his story is correct?

I don't have a clue what happened that night except a young man was shot and killed. Regardless of the law, GZ must prove he was in fear for his life. I don't see how that can be true, based on statements by some of his own family!

 

[This is The End]

Safety an Issue If Zimmerman Is Freed

http://www.theledger.com/article/20120419/NEWS/120419196?Title=Safety-an-Issue-If-Zimmerman-Is-Freed

After spending a week in a jail cell by himself, the neighborhood watch volunteer charged with murdering Trayvon Martin stands a good chance of being granted bail today, despite the severity of the second-degree murder charge he faces.

Whether George Zimmerman is allowed to leave the county as he awaits trial — and how he would remain safe — are two questions likely to be at the center of the hearing at the Seminole County Criminal Justice Center, legal experts said.

More info in the article.

 

[curi0us]

Your compelling anecdotal evidence aside, you didn't really answer the question. I don't doubt a recent wound can re-open. But the question is how was it that Zimmerman's wound closed in the first place. We know it was without the aid of stitches or a bandage. And the idea that a wound that's only about an hour old can heal enough to close on its own, but then a day later require a butterfly bandage to stay closed is preposterous.

I know of a few different products similar to this one.

EMT's and Paramedics in Florida rarely use them.

Johnny Karate wants you to be his Florida EMT expert. Are you supporting what he is saying above? Do you think it would be impossible for GZ to have a head wound that "closed" without bandages or stitches but later might have legitimately benefitted from a butterfly bandage?

As far as using hemostatic agents I would definitely defer to a Florida EMT as far the likelihood of there being used. "Rarely" is not the most helpful qualifier for this discussion though, the question is might celox (or a similar product like combat gauze) have been used by the SFD giving aid to GZ?

Also, as a side issue. Shouldn't there have been some concern about a concussion? The head cuts are nothing serious, it's the implication of force to his head against the pavement they imply that is cause for concern.

 

[Cylinder]

Safety an Issue If Zimmerman Is Freed

http://www.theledger.com/article/20120419/NEWS/120419196?Title=Safety-an-Issue-If-Zimmerman-Is-Freed



More info in the article.

The bond hearing is at 9AM EDT, for those interested.

 

[johnny karate]

Johnny Karate wants you to be his Florida EMT expert. Are you supporting what he is saying above? Do you think it would be impossible for GZ to have a head wound that "closed" without bandages or stitches but later might have legitimately benefitted from a butterfly bandage?

I will certainly defer to triforcharity's explanation for Zimmerman's inconsistent need for a bandage if he cares to offer it.

As far as using hemostatic agents I would definitely defer to a Florida EMT as far the likelihood of there being used. "Rarely" is not the most helpful qualifier for this discussion though, the question is might celox (or a similar product like combat gauze) have been used by the SFD giving aid to GZ?

Why isn't "rarely" a helpful qualifier? It certainly undermines your claim that the use of Celox was "plausible". Or are you no longer arguing plausibility and have instead fallen back on mere possibility in order to keep clinging to the claim your own source contradicts?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Wow. That's a really bad idea...

Wow is right. I find it bizarre and idiotic because of the context of the situation. It would be one thing if the guy was pleading guilty to manslaughter and wanted to apologize to them. But if he's insisting he's innocent, WTF?! Is he going to meet with them and say he's really really sorry, but oh BTW, he really did attack me and tell me he was going to kill me and it really was in self-defense?! That's going to go over real well.

 

[Cylinder]

They need probable cause. If an officer has evidence that a suspect has entered a home then he or she no longer needs to presume an absent of probable cause, right?

Yea, it's just a semantic argument at this point. I just wanted to reiterate that the government can't (from a Constitutional sense) do a thing merely because it seems just or it satisfies a public sense of outrage.

For me, it wan't at all outrageous that the SPD did not arrest or detain Zimmerman the night of the shooting because Florida law forbade it at point - no matter what sequence you feel most probable.

Imagine the scenario where SPD arrested Zimmerman, found the smoking gun evidence in the subsequent search and had that evidence ruled illegally obtained. The immunity statute is clear, seaches cannot be predicated on the use of force alone in cases where justification is asserted.

Imagine the scenario where the prosecutor starts the clock too early and fails the immunity test - which would (barring some reversible error) make the charge go away forever no matter what evidence is obtained at a later date.

I hate even saying this because it comes across as some sort of racist agenda, but I'll stand by it. In criminal proceedings, there is no room for racial justice - which is really the underlying issue here at its heart. Once you preface a qualifier it stops becoming justice at all.

 

[Dancing David]

After the bond hearing, isn't there some sort of preliminary hearing? Won't we see some evidence there? I don't think they talk about evidence at bond hearings. I think it's all about the crime and flight risk, etc.

No, not likely. I believe the judge has sealed the records. The evidence presented in the case prior to the trial or dismissal will be closed, now the actual trial may be televised.

 

[sgtbaker]

Wow is right. I find it bizarre and idiotic because of the context of the situation. It would be one thing if the guy was pleading guilty to manslaughter and wanted to apologize to them. But if he's insisting he's innocent, WTF?! Is he going to meet with them and say he's really really sorry, but oh BTW, he really did attack me and tell me he was going to kill me and it really was in self-defense?! That's going to go over real well.

Regardless of whether or not he is guilty of a crime, anywa way you slice it, he is still ultimately the cause for Trayvon's death. I don't think, in the context of this case, being sorry is an admittance of guilt. If there was a question of whether or not he pulled the trigger, then it would be a monumentally bad idea. In this situation, there is no question that he pulled the trigger.

 

[sgtbaker]

No, not likely. I believe the judge has sealed the records. The evidence presented in the case prior to the trial or dismissal will be closed, now the actual trial may be televised.

If it's not televised, I will start marching and protesting.

 

[KatieG]

First photo of Zimmerman's injuries, taken 3 minutes after the shooting.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FLy9mHfTp

OTOH, it is reported that GZ put his hands on his head immediately after the shooting so perhaps some of the blood may be Trayvon's. It is reported that there is gunshot residue visible on TM's jersey, so he was shot at close range. There will be blood.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

First photo of Zimmerman's injuries, taken 3 minutes after the shooting.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/20/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE83J0JT20120420?feedType=RSS

OTOH, it is reported that GZ put his hands on his head immediately after the shooting so perhaps some of the blood may be Trayvon's. It is reported that there is gunshot residue visible on TM's jersey, so he was shot at close range. There will be blood.

? I don't see any photo of his injuries.

ETA: Image is here

 

[KatieG]

? I don't see any photo of his injuries.

ETA: Image is here

Did you play the video?

Ok, you got it. I'd only seen the link for the video.

Dang it, I had the wrong link too! Way too early for me, not enough caffeine!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FLy9mHfTp

ABC news link

 

[bonzombiekitty]

Did you play the video?

What video? I don't see a video in that link.

 

[KatieG]

What video? I don't see a video in that link.

Fixed it.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

First photo of Zimmerman's injuries, taken 3 minutes after the shooting.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FLy9mHfTp

OTOH, it is reported that GZ put his hands on his head immediately after the shooting so perhaps some of the blood may be Trayvon's. It is reported that there is gunshot residue visible on TM's jersey, so he was shot at close range. There will be blood.

So, IOW, everything is still consistent with GZ story ? Injury to the head, close range shot ?

Now I can't wait for all the internet doctors to chime in and claim that GZ was lying when his atty claimed he was told his injuries should have had stitches. It's why I tried to nip it in the bud last night, asking what what count as serious...

 

[KatieG]

So, IOW, everything is still consistent with GZ story ? Injury to the head, close range shot ?

Now I can't wait for all the internet doctors to chime in and claim that GZ was lying when his atty claimed he was told his injuries should have had stitches. It's why I tried to nip it in the bud last night, asking what what count as serious...

You will choose to see it however you want. I find the angle of the blood to be a little interesting. I also wonder who he's on the phone with less than 3 minutes after the shooting.

I have questions. I'd like to see them answered. That's all I care about. I can't rejoice that a young man is dead and another man's life is ruined at age 28. There's nothing good here.

The report states that the witness saw gunshot residue on TM's hoodie. If TM was shot in the chest and his body ended up laying on his chest, how would the witness see the residue on the front of the hoodie?

 

[Mumbles]

? I don't see any photo of his injuries.

ETA: Image is here

So, basically, minor injury.