Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Kestrel]

Guess where Mr. Primeau's primary certification comes from?

[qimg]http://www.audioforensicexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/americanCollegeForensicExaminersInstitute.jpg[/qimg]

ACFEI was featured on Frontline: The Real CSI this week.

 

[Tatyana]

Celox First Aid
You can rely on Celox™ to stop bleeding when you need it most. Celox's™ clotting action is independent of the bodies normal clotting processes.

<snip>

Celox™ First Aid products are easy to use (just pour, pack and apply pressure), and extremely effective. When mixed with blood, Celox™ forms a gel like clot in 30 seconds.
http://www.celoxmedical.com/prods_firstaid.htm

Gainesville Florida PD using Celox in 2009:
http://www.alligator.org/news/local/article_7a650a65-dfa9-58c5-aef5-384499ff0ed5.html

Forming a clot (scab) is different from wound healing.

 

[Unabogie]

Were the Bin Laden tapes really him, and if so, what process did they use to determine that? If not, was it a conspiracy on the part of the CIA to put out bogus tapes to the public?

 

[johnny karate]

I posted the link to Florida PD using it in 2009 to save you a little trouble.

Well, "Florida" doesn't have a police department. You posted a link establishing Celox is used in Gainesville. Gainesville is not Sanford.

Since the butterfly bandages are less then five cents a bandage a significantly more expensive product is still very cheap so if it works better (in some situations) then it would likely get adopted.

What, in your vast medical knowledge, tells you a relatively minor laceration would be one of those situations?

Superficial head wounds can be strong bleeders and you can't just stick a bandage on if there is any hair so it's very appropriate place to apply a celox/quikclot product.

And yet a butterfly bandage apparently had no problem sticking to Zimmerman's head the next day. What do you imagine might have prevented one from sticking the night before?

If you're going to cite "strong bleeding" you have a very narrow window with which to work. It would have to bleed enough to make it impossible for a bandage to adhere, but not enough to show any blood stains on his clothes in the surveillance video.

What would also be helpful is if you could cite any of these things you're claiming with some actual documentation of medical procedures.

Doesn't mean they did at all. I'm just saying it is plausible it happened.

Really? "Plausible" is what you're going with? I'll grant you "possible" but "plausible" seems like a stretch.

Honestly, this whole line of argument smacks of bias. Instead of coming up with a reasonable scenario to explain the facts (like, for instance, Zimmerman simply exaggerating his injuries) you're bending over backwards to come up with anything that will prove his claim true.

 

[johnny karate]

Were the Bin Laden tapes really him, and if so, what process did they use to determine that? If not, was it a conspiracy on the part of the CIA to put out bogus tapes to the public?

Those tapes weren't very clear. You can't really determine anything by looking at them.

 

[curi0us]

Were the Bin Laden tapes really him, and if so, what process did they use to determine that? If not, was it a conspiracy on the part of the CIA to put out bogus tapes to the public?

Those tapes weren't very clear. You can't really determine anything by looking at them.

Owen actually seems to have made a name for himself by declaring that a 2003 audio tape of Bin Laden was definitely Bin Laden when some European Voice Biometric research software said it probably wasn't a match. At the time he said the voice biometric stuff only worked when you have a good sample for comparison.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Honestly, this whole line of argument smacks of bias. Instead of coming up with a reasonable scenario to explain the facts (like, for instance, Zimmerman simply exaggerating his injuries) you're bending over backwards to come up with anything that will prove his claim true.

GZ claimed he was punched in the face and had his head hit against the sidewalk. That's pretty much what we know from the police report. Aside from that, his (former) atty claims a broken nose and that GZ was told 'he should have had stitches'

GZ story is consistent with the injuries he claims.
The police report is consistent with the injuries he claimed.
Witness claims are consistent with the injuries claimed.
The video is consistent with the injuries he claimed.

I don't find it to be particularly biased or bending over backward to believe his claim. I already linked to a video of Kobe bryant getting his nose broken that same evening, with little blood, and he finished the game. The only 'measurement' of his injury has been the comment 'should have gotten stitches'.

If you consider the description of his lacerations an exaggeration, you are basing the extent of GZ injuries on your medical background and few seconds of a low resolution video.

I should believe you over all that other consistent evidence ?

 

[Unabogie]

Owen actually seems to have made a name for himself by declaring that a 2003 audio tape of Bin Laden was definitely Bin Laden when some European Voice Biometric research software said it probably wasn't a match. At the time he said the voice biometric stuff only worked when you have a good sample for comparison.

So are you of the opinion that none of the tapes were really Bin Laden, or that all of the identifications were un-scientific? Why does the CIA believe them to be worthwhile?

On this note, I've brought up the software "Sound Hound". How does Sound Hound match your voice to the melody of a song, even if there is room noise or you sing off pitch?

 

[dirtywick]

Forming a clot (scab) is different from wound healing.

It's the first stage.

 

[Unabogie]

GZ claimed he was punched in the face and had his head hit against the sidewalk. That's pretty much what we know from the police report. Aside from that, his (former) atty claims a broken nose and that GZ was told 'he should have had stitches'

GZ story is consistent with the injuries he claims.
The police report is consistent with the injuries he claimed.
Witness claims are consistent with the injuries claimed.
The video is consistent with the injuries he claimed.

I don't find it to be particularly biased or bending over backward to believe his claim. I already linked to a video of Kobe bryant getting his nose broken that same evening, with little blood, and he finished the game. The only 'measurement' of his injury has been the comment 'should have gotten stitches'.

If you consider the description of his lacerations an exaggeration, you are basing the extent of GZ injuries on your medical background and few seconds of a low resolution video.

I should believe you over all that other consistent evidence ?

Anderson Cooper had a witness on his show who said that the fight happened on grass, not on cement at all. If so, would hitting your head on grass cause a laceration? If Zimmerman claimed he hit his head on the cement but this witness saw them on grass, how does this NOT contradict Zimmerman's account?

 

[Unabogie]

By the way, it's possible that Zimmerman walking around with bandages and wounds that looked more severe the next day, when contrasted with the wounds seen on the night of the shooting, are actually evidence against him and are part of the reason he was charged. If evidence shows he exaggerated his injuries that could be used as knowledge of guilt. So the neighbors seeing him the next day may actually be hurting him instead of helping.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Anderson Cooper had a witness on his show who said that the fight happened on grass, not on cement at all. If so, would hitting your head on grass cause a laceration? If Zimmerman claimed he hit his head on the cement but this witness saw them on grass, how does this NOT contradict Zimmerman's account?

Mary Cutcher again ? If you could link to the part where she actually claims she saw the fight, that would be great.

Even if it's not her, please provide a link. And any additional evidence that the fight happened so far away from the sidewalk it's impossible that GZ head hit the sidewalk and his body was in the grass.

 

[Uncle Otto]

Well, "Florida" doesn't have a police department. You posted a link establishing Celox is used in Gainesville. Gainesville is not Sanford.

Just to clarify something----all 50 states have a police department. Some are called the State Police, others, as in the case of Florida, are called the Highway Patrol. When Curi0us wrote the sentence that he had posted a link to the "Florida PD" that used the item, I took it to mean "the police department in Florida that uses it" PD being a generic abbreviation for most police departments.

I don't think he meant that there is actually an agency called "Florida PD". In fact the link he posted clearly indicates that Gainsville PD is the agency being referred to.

He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Minor issue I know, but I'm a stickler for that sort of detail.

 

[johnny karate]

GZ claimed he was punched in the face and had his head hit against the sidewalk. That's pretty much what we know from the police report. Aside from that, his (former) atty claims a broken nose and that GZ was told 'he should have had stitches'

GZ story is consistent with the injuries he claims.
The police report is consistent with the injuries he claimed.
Witness claims are consistent with the injuries claimed.
The video is consistent with the injuries he claimed.

That is incorrect. Not only is the video inconsistent with the claim that Zimmerman needed stitches, but the witness claims from the next day are inconsistent with the video.

I don't find it to be particularly biased or bending over backward to believe his claim. I already linked to a video of Kobe bryant getting his nose broken that same evening, with little blood, and he finished the game.

That's great. But we're talking about Zimmerman's scalp laceration, not his broken nose.

The only 'measurement' of his injury has been the comment 'should have gotten stitches'.

And the fact that it seemed to require a bandage the following day.

If you consider the description of his lacerations an exaggeration, you are basing the extent of GZ injuries on your medical background and few seconds of a low resolution video.

No, I'm basing it on common sense that tells me a wound that requires a butterfly bandage to stay closed the following day wouldn't magically stay closed on its own an hour after being inflicted.

So far, the only explanation being offered is that the EMTs might have used a more expensive quick clotting compound developed for traumatic wounds we don't even know they have to treat Zimmerman's relatively minor scalp laceration.

This, somehow, is granted more plausibility than the idea that Zimmerman might have simply exaggerated his injuries.

I should believe you over all that other consistent evidence ?

Believe what you want, but the evidence is contradictory.

 

[johnny karate]

Just to clarify something----all 50 states have a police department. Some are called the State Police, others, as in the case of Florida, are called the Highway Patrol. When Curi0us wrote the sentence that he had posted a link to the "Florida PD" that used the item, I took it to mean "the police department in Florida that uses it" PD being a generic abbreviation for most police departments.

I don't think he meant that there is actually an agency called "Florida PD". In fact the link he posted clearly indicates that Gainsville PD is the agency being referred to.

He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Minor issue I know, but I'm a stickler for that sort of detail.

Fair enough. I was - perhaps poorly - trying to make a point about the attempted conflation of the Gainesville police department and the EMTs who treated Zimmerman.

 

[Unabogie]

Mary Cutcher again ? If you could link to the part where she actually claims she saw the fight, that would be great.

Even if it's not her, please provide a link. And any additional evidence that the fight happened so far away from the sidewalk it's impossible that GZ head hit the sidewalk and his body was in the grass.

No it wasn't her. I'll try and find a link. He was anonymous (pretty sure it was a man) and he had given the police his story, but didn't want his name public.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/new-tray...s-to-anderson-cooper-about-night-of-shooting/

Got it.

saw two men on the ground, on top of each other, obviously thinking, okay something really horrible is happening. And at that point, not looking out the window, I heard a yell for help, and then I heard … another excruciating type of yell. It didn’t even almost sound like ‘help,’ it almost sounded so painful. But I wasn’t watching out the window. [...] Next time I looked out the window, there same thing, two men on the grass, on top of each other [...] I couldn’t see a lot of movement because it was very dark, but I felt like they were scuffling. And then I heard gunshots, which to me, were more like pops.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That's great. But we're talking about Zimmerman's scalp laceration, not his broken nose.

Well, this was my original question:

For all those claiming they don't believe GZ was actually injured (head lacerations, broken nose), would additional witnesses persuade you?

I acknowledge that you in particular, JK, argued about the extent of his injuries. Others doubted he was injured at all, and many pronounced that his nose looked normal.

No, I'm basing it on common sense that tells me a wound that requires a butterfly bandage to stay closed the following day wouldn't magically stay closed on its own an hour after being inflicted.

Believe what you want, but the evidence is contradictory.

I don't find lack of a bandage that evening after EMT treatment and having one the next day contradictory.

The story is GZ declined to go to the hospital. Why did they offer to take him ? Perhaps in the opinion of the EMT they were minor lacerations. And in the opinion of the doctor GZ went to see (at the hospital IIRC from his former atty) they weren't minor ? Can't it be as simple as that ?

For all I know, the person on the scene cleaned the wound, it stopped bleeding, and he smeared it with antiobiotic or some other salve and told GZ to keep it clean and let it breathe.

His nose hurt later that night or the next morning, he went to the hospital, and the person in the hospital said 'oh, you really should have that closed with a butterfly' and put bandages on it.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No it wasn't her. I'll try and find a link. He was anonymous (pretty sure it was a man) and he had given the police his story, but didn't want his name public.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/new-tray...s-to-anderson-cooper-about-night-of-shooting/

Got it.

Thanks for the link. So ... what is right next to the grass ? The sidewalk.
What do people normally walk on ? The sidewalk.

So you find it improbable that a fight may have started on the sidewalk and moved in to the grass ?


and, BTW - for all thos who linked to weather underground earlier and claimed maybe it wasn't raining much (from the above witness):

shut my window (because it started raining) … and I thought, oh my gosh who’s out there walking their dog in the rain?

 

[johnny karate]

I don't find lack of a bandage that evening after EMT treatment and having one the next day contradictory.

The story is GZ declined to go to the hospital. Why did they offer to take him ? Perhaps in the opinion of the EMT they were minor lacerations. And in the opinion of the doctor GZ went to see (at the hospital IIRC from his former atty) they weren't minor ? Can't it be as simple as that ?

Then how was the wound kept closed without aid of stitches or bandages?

The one theory being offered so far is by use of an expensive clotting agent designed for traumatic injuries.

Do you agree with that theory? Or do you have another one to offer?

 

[Unabogie]

Thanks for the link. So ... what is right next to the grass ? The sidewalk.
What do people normally walk on ? The sidewalk.

So you find it improbable that a fight may have started on the sidewalk and moved in to the grass ?


and, BTW - for all thos who linked to weather underground earlier and claimed maybe it wasn't raining much (from the above witness):

You're moving the goalpost. The reason the cement is important is because Zimmerman claims he was being pummeled against it when he shot. If they'd moved over to grass, he can't claim the same imminent grievous injury on grass.

Here's Zimmerman's father making this claim:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/george-z...-defense-version-of-trayvon-martins-shooting/