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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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There is actually no 'want' about it. Either you digest the information, or you remain hopelessly ignorant. I merely pointed you in the direction of some sources of documents which you can read and digest for free.

I predicted that you would try to dismiss Yad Vashem with an ad hominem argument, and obviously I was right. Unfortunately this doesn't work. The reason Yad Vashem was recommended was because it offers online sources, for free, in translation. The sources exist whether you like it or not, and it doesn't matter what paranoid bullflop you come up with to try and dismiss them.

Appellare ad Prophetia.

If you know that would happen, why did you bother to take part into?

What fool you are...

Numerical data is generally found in books after historians have processed large numbers of sources to arrive at reasonable figures, either estimates (which are not exactly uncommon in historiography) or precise figures based on whatever sources are available.

That is a job for the mathematicians and computer analysts in case you do not know.

I noticed you cannot explain to Clayton Moore which unit measure you utilized in your book...

You rhetoric speak all.

And this is why your insistence on 'primary sources' is such gibberish. You skip over secondary sources, the very books and articles which would actually answer your question, playing Every Man His Own Historian while remaining wilfully incapable of digesting, understanding or analysing all the sources. But primary sources it was you asked for, so you got given some primary sources.

Evidently you cannot read English properly since I wrote

As it happened, I didn't recommend Yad Vashem as a sole source (database), I recommended the site as one of several possible sources of information. If you recall, I originally gave my sources for the brief summary of how Jews were identified by listing the following books

SOURCES - a small selection, needless to say
Jews in France during World War II / Renée Poznanski. Hanover, N.H. : University Press of New England in Association with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum ; Waltham, Mass. : Brandeis University Press, 2001
Moore, Bob, Survivors. Jewish Self-Help and Rescue in Nazi-Occupied Western Europe. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2010
Paulsson, Gunnar S., Secret city : the hidden Jews of Warsaw, 1940-1945. New Haven : Yale University Press, c2002.
Krakowski, Shmuel, The War of the Doomed. Jewish Armed Resistance in Poland, 1942-1944. New York, 1984
Seltzer, William, ‘Population Statistics, the Holocaust and the Nuremberg Trials’, Population and Development Review 24/3, 1998, pp.511-552
Engelking, Barbara, Jest taki piekny sloneczny dzien... Losy Zydow szukajacych ratunku na wsi polskiej 1942-1945. Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badan nad Zaglada Zydow, 2011
Grabowski, Judenjagd. Polowanie na Zydow 1942-1945. Studium dziejow pewnego powiatu. Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badan nad Zaglada Zydow, 2011

This caused you to throw a hissy fit and ask for something that was free. So I gave you some sources that were free. I didn't just recommend YV, I also recommended Googling:

which clearly you have no interest in doing, so all of this is a waste of time that only serves to make you look sillier and sillier.

That's only if you wander around in a maze of tertiary sources, but this is easily avoided by going to secondary sources of the kind recommended above, eg Poznanski's book on the Jews of France. Poznanski then cites documents with proper archival references, which can if you remain completely paranoid, check by visiting the archive.

You can also order books from libraries. For free.

393 words and counting...

It's really funny, your sockpuppet on Skeptic Society Forum just posted a reproduction - not a facsimile - of a memo by Foreign Office official Martin Luther dated 21 August 1942 which was originally used in the Ministries Trial and coded NG-2586-J. So it seems that 'data from a show trial' is apparently 'statically acceptable' to you if you think it supports your case, but if you are trolling then it's not. Hypocrite.

I do not even know you are typing about...

You are hallucinating.

What is 'statically acceptable' to you is irrelevant. The Eichmann trial saw more than 1,000 documents submitted into evidence. Those documents came from archives. The same archives have been used by historians - not, hiowever by deniers - who write books summarising the evidence of the documents for the convenience of readers who don't have time to go through 1,000 documents in German. The Eichmann Trial was thus recommended as source for primary sources.

You could present 6,000,000 documents to Eichmann!

Unless there are more witness which have confirmed the same documents and provided numerical data,

Margin of error = 98%

This is yet more meaningless gibberish. The Luther Memo which you so happily linked to exists - and belonged in a file of the Foreign Office. The same file contained many other documents relevant to the Final Solution of the Jewish Question. Indeed if I recall correctly, the same file contains the Wannsee protocol, stamped with a numbering sequence which is consistent across the file.

Oh, the Wansee Nazy Conspirancy Protocol of the Aryan Race!

No accurate statistical data there...

On the contrary, I provided you with the starting points to answer your apparent questions. I am under no obligation to give you a postgraduate level education in the Holocaust on this thread.

You, however, are under the intellectual obligation to know what the heck it is you are talking about. I have suggested a few ways of remedying your seemingly incurable ignorance, but you have simply thrown petulant hissy fits. Pathetic.

I am also not interested in religious studies.

It is interesting to read many posts by you and observe that you spell full zero digit numbers and percentages at will, without any care to accuracy. But when I ask for statistical reference, you disguise your inability to present me the original data with huge paragraphs of words.
 
You got wrong in your "stupidly desperate" observation.

I did not dismiss the witness for the historical account, I typed that was not acceptable as reference for statistical data.

I know you have a wit mind to understand the difference.

That's nice. We were not discussing the statistical data, but the witnesses' testimony in general. Since you have admitted to "refuting" only the statistical date when you know we were discussing the testimony in general, you just admitted to using a straw man argument.

And, of course, your laughable reason for contesting the statistical data has nothing to do with whether the Eichmann is kidnapped or not.

For Christ's sake, you don't do statistics like that.

Margins of error and power calculations are performed on the data being studied, not on the analyzer of the data — unless you're doing a meta-analysis, in which case you'd better be aware of Höfle and Korherr, whose numbers are identical to Eichmann's, providing a P value of something like .00000000001.

Got it?

I'll tell you one thing: You got the right book.
Ah, there we go. There, ST, you're wrong.
 
Yes, we know, move the goalposts, demand unnecessary evidence, and make indirect personal attacks while avoiding backing up your claims. We are familiar with your methods, Snakey. I note that you do not present a smidge of evidence in your post, and as I have already pointed out, you were not asked about Eichmann's statistical validity. You were asked why being kidnapped and deported illegally makes his testimony invalid.

Yes, rather. For clarification's sake, this was the question of why Eichmann's having been kidnapped and taken to Israel to stand trial (both things true, by the way) would mean that, logically speaking, you couldn't trust his testimony.

You are still dodging, which is why you responded only to post #600 and not to the clarified #677, which I have posted above. For convenience.
 
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Thirdly, your understanding of historical statistics is hilarious. There are approximately several billion possible historical statistics which will never be known precisely, so therefore historians and social scientists routinely have to rely on other methods to arrive at best-fit approximations.

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Social scientists are likewise unable to arrive at precise statistics for a great many things of interest, and thus have to conduct surveys using essentially, opinion-poll methods. The survey results are thus models, and not absolute numbers.

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Which social scientists estimated the 6,000,000 number of the Holocaust victims?
 
Firstly, I think you'll find that quantitative analyses are statistics, and secondly as you haven't actually read the book (and seemingly do not intend to) you are in no position to determine whether or not the methodological approach is valid.

No, "quantitative analyses" is the interpretation of the statistics.

A precisely difference.
 
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Nick Terry has pointed out that many of your JAQs can be easily answered with a small amount of effort, and you ignore that to attack him and make baseless statements about his intent. Your so-called critical thinking is largely one-sided.

Very flat indeed!
 
Bad for me...

I did not mean you say that.

I am confused to understand how racial hatred was used against a religious group of people. I thought the persecutions were solely based on racial features. But it seems the religion was the main factor to recognize the persecuted.
Religion was the easiest to recognize the persecuted, yes. Nazi ideology was racial hatred; their helpers in the local populace may have been motivated by racial hatred or religious hatred or just by hatred of "different" people.

Yes. How the persecutions of homosexuals happened?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_homosexuals_in_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Holocaust

Oh, the difficulty to post a simple URL...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henneicke_Column

It is there any document published in the Internet which I could see to have an idea of how much money was offered to people denounce the Jews?
See above: NLG 7,50 was the usual rate in Holland. Different in other countries - in Poland, more often extra food than money.

And yes, the above are wiki links. You've shown such a basic lack of knowledge of the history involved that I don't really see why I should go dig up primary sources. Start with some general knowledge.

But if you want primary sources, why not go after them yourself? Check the Dutch wiki page of the Henneicke Column, you'll get a list of the members who were sentenced to death. Track down the trial verdicts or the transcripts.

Not indeed. Answer posts in JREF forum take me to the edge of my foreign language skill.

Do not expect a good english.
You might practice on your English reading skills as well. What is your native tongue?
 
Appellare ad Prophetia.

If you know that would happen, why did you bother to take part into?

What fool you are...

Hardly, since you have been shown up quite badly over the last few pages of this thread. Irrational ad hominem dismissals of evidence don't make you look very bright.

That is a job for the mathematicians and computer analysts in case you do not know.

No, it's not. Historians deal with historical sources and are accordingly the ones who analyse historical sources, sometimes using computers and sometimes using complex statistical models, especially if they do econometric history.

But most historians don't need to use computers because there is no expectation that the sources will allow them to produce a precise result, so they cannot even try.

I noticed you cannot explain to Clayton Moore which unit measure you utilized in your book...

You rhetoric speak all.

Wouldn't is different to cannot. Clayton Moore refused to even read a section of the book, he is a waste of time.

I do not even know you are typing about...

You are hallucinating.

It's funny, there is a poster at Skeptics Society Forum named 'Bob' who has a very similar writing style to you, also obsesses over 'primary sources', also dismisses scholarly literature with ad hominems, and has many other similarities. Many people here think you are the same person. You also remind people of 'Skcz' at CODOH forum. One of these matches is quite likely to be accurate, since there are only so many half-literate non-native English speaking Holocaust deniers on the internet.

You could present 6,000,000 documents to Eichmann!

Missing the point. The Eichmann Trial was recommended along with the Nuremberg Trials as a place to find primary sources in general, since you had asked for primary sources. At the time when you asked for primary sources, you were only asking about how the SS identified Jews. Now you've moved the goalposts onto some other nonsense.

Unless there are more witness which have confirmed the same documents and provided numerical data,

Margin of error = 98%

Several other posters have pointed out the flaws in this assertion. It is not difficult to demonstrate that it is fundamentally wrong, because in a great many situations in human history, we simply have no other data but eyewitness accounts and their estimates of numbers

It is easily seen that all reports of political demonstrations will be accompanied by estimates of the size of the demonstration. Sometimes the police offer an estimate of the size of the crowd, sometimes the organisers claim that a certain number attended, and sometimes the media will offer an estimate. All these figures are essentially 'eyewitness' level sources. And none will ever be precise.

There is in fact no way of knowing a precise number for how many attended a mass demonstration. So in such cases, we are entirely stuck with the estimates of the police, organisers, or media, or maybe some other eyewitness who took part and wrote about it in a diary. They are all the same 'quality' of source, and there is essentially no point trying to apply statistics to these numbers.

So we are forever stuck with the estimates for the protests before the Iraq War in 2003. You may say that we have TV footage of the demonstrations and can get some better gauge from this source, but nobody is going to be able to do more than establish a ballpark figure.

It would be even more complicated to arrive at a precise number of the 1848 Chartist petition protest march, since there were no TV cameras then.

Therefore, and this is the important bit, one cannot apply statistical exactitude to numbers that will not allow for it, which means that all talk of 'margins of error' is basically irrelevant.

The most one can do is take all estimates and average them, which is exactly what historians do when all they have are estimates. They say the estimates range between 3,000 and 6,000 people who were doing x.

Oh, the Wansee Nazy Conspirancy Protocol of the Aryan Race!

No accurate statistical data there...

Actually, the Wannsee Protocol contains several figures which are highly accurate, mixed in with numbers that are demonstrably wrong. This is hardly unusual for historical sources. The numbers of German and Austrian Jews given in the WP match monthly reports compiled by the statistical bureaux of the Jewish councils in Berlin and Vienna, which had to submit monthly reports to the Gestapo so they could monitor the number of emigrants, deaths, births and deportations. The same series of reports were then used by Korherr, the SS statistican, who compiled a report which synthesised numbers from various agencies, who informed him to the best of their ability, and in some cases clearly gave simple estimates because they sent in rounded numbers.

This is a good example of the problems faced when encountering statistics in historical documents. The statistics will only ever be as good as the bureaucracies which collect the figures, and there are many, many examples where government agencies lost track of things.

The Wehrmacht was undercounting the number of German war dead systematically by 1943, and even more so in 1944 and 1945, because of poor statistical systems.

I am also not interested in religious studies.

That's nice, but your attempt to dismiss the existing scholarship with a handwave doesn't absolve you of the requirement of knowing just a little bit about it, before anyone need take you seriously when you comment on these issues.

It is interesting to read many posts by you and observe that you spell full zero digit numbers and percentages at will, without any care to accuracy. But when I ask for statistical reference, you disguise your inability to present me the original data with huge paragraphs of words.

Frankly, you have been so cryptic I haven't even seen where you have asked any clear questions about numbers.

You tried to dismiss Paulsson without considering whether it would be possible to arrive at an exact number of Jews in hiding. I argued that it was not possible, so expecting an absolutely precise number is irrational. This is also no different to billions of other historical figures which will never, ever be known with absolute precision, no matter what the topic.

Perhaps you should state your point more clearly. What numbers are you actually talking about?
 
How accurate are casualty statistics?
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/marerror.htm

ST should peruse Matthew White's site and recalibrate his standards before opening his gob again on historical statistics.

Can I ask, has Snake Tongue definitively resolved that he wants to discuss historical casualty statistics, and specifically the numbers for the Holocaust?

Has the thread drifted definitively to this topic?
 
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a) what is your educational background
b) what books you have read on this subject

Yet when people don't answer them to your satisfaction, you throw hissy fits. You are not entitled to throw hissy fits. You just make yourself look like a silly little troll when you do that.

Yad Vashem indicate this is Nuremberg document NO-205.

Here is a photostat of the same document on the Harvard Nuremberg Trials Project website.

In this source,on page 203, in a chapter which I happened to write, the archival file is indicated: BA NS19/1583, p.16, which means it is in the Bundesarchiv in Berlin-Lichterfelde today.

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By Mercury, what keyboard warrior you are!

At least you provided something interesting, a document.

You deserve an answer.

a) Pythagoras's School. I got the degree in 473 BC.
b) By that time was no books, only verbal debate.

No, you asked how the SS knew how to identify the Jews. I answered that, and now you're Gish Galloping by asking more questions. **** off.

I really appreciated you answer, was very elucidative. Did you notice that I did not challenged that information? Did you notice that I made two questions before to ask the statistics? I was also really interested in the qualitative aspect of the subject, not only the quantitative.

But you answer was a crazy long paragraphs about historical methodology!

You got off the lines...

I am not here to discuss academic credibility.
 
Oh, for Christ's sake...

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The Ashkenazi Jews in Central Europe were the ones that formulated Reform Judaism — in the mid-19th century or thereabouts.

That clear that up for you, Sparky?

Yes, Bob!

One more bit of qualitative information about Judaism!

Thank you.
 
By Mercury, what keyboard warrior you are!

At least you provided something interesting, a document.

You deserve an answer.

a) Pythagoras's School. I got the degree in 473 BC.
b) By that time was no books, only verbal debate.

It's OK. Since you posted 'Statistics for Dummies', you have basically lost all intellectual credibility.

I really appreciated you answer, was very elucidative. Did you notice that I did not challenged that information? Did you notice that I made two questions before to ask the statistics? I was also really interested in the qualitative aspect of the subject, not only the quantitative.

But you answer was a crazy long paragraphs about historical methodology!

You got off the lines...

I am not here to discuss academic credibility.

Except you keep trying to dismiss scholarly works with ridiculous arguments. So yes you are here to "discuss academic credibility". The only problem is you haven't shown that you are capable of assessing this. Indeed it is fairly obvious you aren't capable.
 
An irrelevant sideshow. You have yet to provide evidence that Hitler did not kill millions of Jews.

As you wish:



Do you see Hitler killing Jews?

No...

There is, a powerful living myth which you can only blame for the 6,000,000 fictional deaths happening inside your mind every moment.

Still, the myth is intact. You cannot touch it. You are an mere mortal.
 
He needs to do a Measurement Systems Analysis on the historians first.


I expect a full analysis according to Hans F. K. Günther. With some sidedish of phrenology.
Sidenote: Snaketongue seems to believe himself something other than a mere mortal. I hereby propose that to be evidently untrue and rather lulzy.
 
If you actually read Dr. Terry's or Lemmycaution's usually tedious and tangential to the discussion iambic pentameter you would know that Nazi policy toward the Jews was not uniform.
Which observation *might* be relevant, had I asked about Nazi policy in this instance.

But as anyone *not* looking to tap dance and able to read for comprehension can see, I did not.

So the question still stands: "How *were* the Jews treated by the Nazis, by and large?
How they were "really" treated differed from place to place and changed over time.
So, then, let's start with Anne Frank and other Dutch Jews, whose fate you began your return to dialogue with me by sneering at the probative value of -- what, specifically happened to the vast majority of them?
It's safe to say that they were all treated rather poorly, some more so than others.
"rather poorly"? You don't think that this is just a *slight* understatement?
Nuremberg Laws? Deportations? Do you know anything about the history you are so willing to embrace?
Now we begin to get to the corner painting in earnest: Dutch Jews were deported to where? For what reason? How many survived the war in their new homes?

You see, Anne Frank is a microcosm of the ~ 100k Dutch Jews who were "treated poorly". Exactly how were they treated, and why did Nazis do so, given that you have already started out admitting they had done nothing to deserve being treated differently from anyone else?
 
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