Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[sgtbaker]

Maybe more accurate but still just a young kid with his entire life in front of him.

What are you talking about? picture 3 of 7 clearly shows his thugish tendencies.

 

[Rare Truth]

Originally Posted by johnny karate
Unless - and this will be the third time I'm asking - you care to explain how a wound that needed a bandage to be kept closed the following day was staying closed on its own an hour or so after it was inflicted.

Actually, it was more like 37 minutes from the time he was fighting for his life, till we saw him at the police station.


Quick healer, huh?

 

[johnny karate]

Quite easily actually, new wounds can easily pull apart after several hours and need stitching or other methods to put them back. I was fencing a number of years back (the fence type fencing, not the swords type) and when I cut a wire it sprung back and slit my palm quite badly. After the bleeding stopped the wound had closed enough that I was about to finish the day out without a bandage (about 3 hours,) but a few hours after getting home it reopened and I had to get it treated.

Your compelling anecdotal evidence aside, you didn't really answer the question. I don't doubt a recent wound can re-open. But the question is how was it that Zimmerman's wound closed in the first place. We know it was without the aid of stitches or a bandage. And the idea that a wound that's only about an hour old can heal enough to close on its own, but then a day later require a butterfly bandage to stay closed is preposterous.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

This line about people wanting GZ arrested so "the truth could come out" may be the most intellectually dishonest bit of nonsense I've ever heard in my life. I was under the impression that we arrest people and charge them with murder because that's what the evidence supports (as hopefully it does since he's been arrested). I must have missed the part where we arrest people and charge them with murder "so the truth can come out". Can anyone point me to the parts of our criminal law that explain that we actually arrest people and charge them with murder to get to the truth to come out? I'm genuinely asking as I've never heard of this before.

 

[johnny karate]

Actually, it was more like 37 minutes from the time he was fighting for his life, till we saw him at the police station.


Quick healer, huh?

Actually, from what I can tell, he heals in reverse. His wounds apparently get worse as time passes.

 

[triforcharity]

Didn't see this posted back when the police video was released.

For all those claiming they don't believe GZ was actually injured (head lacerations, broken nose), would additional witnesses persuade you?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/16/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE83F19Y20120416

Jorge Rodriguez, Zimmerman's next-door neighbor, told Reuters that when he saw Zimmerman the day after the incident, "he had two big, butterfly bandages on the back of his head, and another big bandage...on the bridge of his nose." He was talking to a police detective in his driveway.

Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.

I can put butterfly bandages on at home. So no, I am most certainly not convinced he claims he was injured severely.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

What are you talking about? picture 3 of 7 clearly shows his thugish tendencies.

Ya, that looks like some type of a gang handkerchief in his suit pocket.

 

[triforcharity]

I bet she's happy she has a reason to recuse herself. I wouldn't want to preside over what is sure to be a three ring circus. The publicity is great for the lawyers, but the judge has nothing to gain from it except a headache.

Very true. Too bad though. She was pretty damn smokin' hot.....

 

[Unabogie]

He was treated by EMS who no doubt made notes of his injuries, taken to the police station, observed by police officers, and likely photographed there. And then he went home and beat himself up to support his story that he had injuries. Makes sense to me.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/003/374/Cool_story_bro_.jpg

1. We don't know if he was photographed. We assume so, but that's not a fact.
2. We don't know if he took minor injuries and "enhanced them". Again, it wouldn't be the first time and you can bet the DA will bring this up at trial.
3. George Zimmerman is not the smartest man in the world. What would seem like a bad idea to you or me might seem plausible to a guy looking at a murder charge. Not to mention that people who are reasonable don't racially profile unarmed teenagers and then follow them and shoot them after being told the cops are on the way. Zimmerman is by definition not a reasonable person, even if he's not guilty of a crime.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

1. We don't know if he was photographed. We assume so, but that's not a fact.
2. We don't know if he took minor injuries and "enhanced them". Again, it wouldn't be the first time and you can bet the DA will bring this up at trial.
3. George Zimmerman is not the smartest man in the world. What would seem like a bad idea to you or me might seem plausible to a guy looking at a murder charge. Not to mention that people who are reasonable don't racially profile unarmed teenagers and then follow them and shoot them after being told the cops are on the way. Zimmerman is by definition not a reasonable person, even if he's not guilty of a crime.

Anything is possible but that fact that you put it forth as a reasonable proposition suggests you want badly to embrace anything that confirms what you want to believe. It makes little sense, even if he's an idiot it makes little sense.

If you wanted to put forth a more reasonable argument all you needed point out is that anyone can put on some bandages to try to appear injured. You don't need to invent some theory that he went home and injured himself some more - after the fact.

 

[eerok]

1. George Zimmerman is not the smartest man in the world. What would seem like a bad idea to you or me might seem plausible to a guy looking at a murder charge. Not to mention that people who are reasonable don't racially profile unarmed teenagers and then follow them and shoot them after being told the cops are on the way. Zimmerman is by definition not a reasonable person, even if he's not guilty of a crime.

This pretty much summarizes my take on Zimmerman. He's an idiot who consistently made bad judgment calls and killed an innocent kid. I don't think that he's evil, but he's pretty damn stupid.

I think he is guilty of a crime. I'd expect at least a conviction of manslaughter, but we'll see.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

This pretty much summarizes my take on Zimmerman. He's an idiot who consistently made bad judgment calls...

It seems one thing nearly everyone agrees on is this guy is likely not the brightest bulb in the box.

 

[curi0us]

Your compelling anecdotal evidence aside, you didn't really answer the question. I don't doubt a recent wound can re-open. But the question is how was it that Zimmerman's wound closed in the first place. We know it was without the aid of stitches or a bandage. And the idea that a wound that's only about an hour old can heal enough to close on its own, but then a day later require a butterfly bandage to stay closed is preposterous.

Celox First Aid
You can rely on Celox™ to stop bleeding when you need it most. Celox's™ clotting action is independent of the bodies normal clotting processes.

<snip>

Celox™ First Aid products are easy to use (just pour, pack and apply pressure), and extremely effective. When mixed with blood, Celox™ forms a gel like clot in 30 seconds.
http://www.celoxmedical.com/prods_firstaid.htm

Gainesville Florida PD using Celox in 2009:
http://www.alligator.org/news/local/article_7a650a65-dfa9-58c5-aef5-384499ff0ed5.html

 

[crimresearch]

This line about people wanting GZ arrested so "the truth could come out" may be the most intellectually dishonest bit of nonsense I've ever heard in my life. I was under the impression that we arrest people and charge them with murder because that's what the evidence supports (as hopefully it does since he's been arrested). I must have missed the part where we arrest people and charge them with murder "so the truth can come out". Can anyone point me to the parts of our criminal law that explain that we actually arrest people and charge them with murder to get to the truth to come out? I'm genuinely asking as I've never heard of this before.

Well what else do we have dunking stools and the iron maiden for??

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Well what else do we have dunking stools and the iron maiden for??

Perfect response actually . Maybe George Zimmerman is a witch and just needs to be arrested and dunked to get to the truth of the matter.

 

[Chris L]

This pretty much summarizes my take on Zimmerman. He's an idiot who consistently made bad judgment calls and killed an innocent kid. I don't think that he's evil, but he's pretty damn stupid.

I think he is guilty of a crime. I'd expect at least a conviction of manslaughter, but we'll see.

I agree with you on Zimmerman, I just don't know if a conviction can be gotten in this case. The original SA sure didn't think so.

 

[Unabogie]

Anything is possible but that fact that you put it forth as a reasonable proposition suggests you want badly to embrace anything that confirms what you want to believe. It makes little sense, even if he's an idiot it makes little sense.

If you wanted to put forth a more reasonable argument all you needed point out is that anyone can put on some bandages to try to appear injured. You don't need to invent some theory that he went home and injured himself some more - after the fact.

Either of those things could be true. That's why photos taken immediately after the shooting are so critical. They, not witnesses from the next day, are what should sway. The next day offered too many opportunities for deceit on the part of a potentially guilty man.

 

[johnny karate]

Celox First Aid
You can rely on Celox™ to stop bleeding when you need it most. Celox's™ clotting action is independent of the bodies normal clotting processes.

<snip>

Celox™ First Aid products are easy to use (just pour, pack and apply pressure), and extremely effective. When mixed with blood, Celox™ forms a gel like clot in 30 seconds.
http://www.celoxmedical.com/prods_firstaid.htm

Gainesville Florida PD using Celox in 2009:
http://www.alligator.org/news/local/article_7a650a65-dfa9-58c5-aef5-384499ff0ed5.html

So is this an honest belief or a Hail Mary pass?

What information there is on the website about its use doesn't strike me as indicating it's very widespread in emergency medical services. But I've contacted the company to find out. So I guess we'll see.

ETA: Also, it should be noted that a 10-pack of Celox costs almost seven times as much as a box of 100 large butterfly bandages. That breaks down to Celox being about 88 times more expensive per use than a butterfly bandage. So even if an EMS had Celox, I'd have to wonder why they would choose to use a product that is so much more expensive for a non-life threatening wound.

 

[Mumbles]

There was debate before over how manipulative the young looking TM photo should be viewed on the grounds that the Martin family may not have had better photos so I thought these more recent TM photos the family had were relevant:
http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-Prom-Picture-Photos-exclusive?gpage=2#gtop

And most of those photos had been available via the press, weeks ago.

 

[curi0us]

So is this an honest belief or a Hail Mary pass?

Neither extreme. You asked how the wound could have closed and I knew of a first aid product that might have been used that could have done it.

What information there is on the website about its use doesn't strike me as indicating it's very widespread in emergency medical services. But I've contacted the company to find out. So I guess we'll see.

I posted the link to Florida PD using it in 2009 to save you a little trouble.

ETA: Also, it should be noted that a 10-pack of Celox costs almost seven times as much as a box of 100 large butterfly bandages. That breaks down to Celox being about 88 times more expensive per use than a butterfly bandage. So even if an EMS had Celox, I'd have to wonder why they would choose to use a product that is so much more expensive for a non-life threatening wound.

Since the butterfly bandages are less then five cents a bandage a significantly more expensive product is still very cheap so if it works better (in some situations) then it would likely get adopted. Superficial head wounds can be strong bleeders and you can't just stick a bandage on if there is any hair so it's very appropriate place to apply a celox/quikclot product. (Doesn't mean they did at all. I'm just saying it is plausible it happened.)