Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[sgtbaker]

And the evidence seemed to agree, according to the state. I don't think the family members are out of line saying the man who killed their unarmed child committed murder, just because he was claiming self-defense.

I am not going to spend three pages arguing the difference between killing and murder. Suffice to say, thank you for proving my point, his guilt has already been decided.

 

[johnny karate]

I am not going to spend three pages arguing the difference between killing and murder. Suffice to say, thank you for proving my point, his guilt has already been decided.

What people have "decided" about Zimmerman and what they want as a result are two separate issues. I believe Zimmerman is guilty of the crime for which he's charged. That doesn't mean I want his head on a spike. I want to see him tried and to see the legal system take its course. If that means evidence is brought to light that exonerates him, so be it. If that means he is found guilty and sentenced accordingly, so be it.

I think the primary issue here is justice. Zimmerman being arrested and tried is justice. Zimmerman being sent home the night he killed someone is not.

 

[Checkmite]

I am not going to spend three pages arguing the difference between killing and murder.

What, do you think you're special or something? The rest of us have spent over 200 pages doing it. If we can, so can you.

 

[Unabogie]

I am not going to spend three pages arguing the difference between killing and murder. Suffice to say, thank you for proving my point, his guilt has already been decided.

And again, I don't think you can fault his mother for deciding that the man who killed her son and then claimed he had it coming, is lying and murdered him. What do you expect? She just wants to "hear all the facts because gosh, maybe my son really is a thug?" The guy killed her son. That's not in dispute. If someone killed one of my family members and then claimed it was because they were attacked by him, I'd be pretty sure whether or not that sounded in character or not. I know my family, and it would come off as a lie. I'd guess that's true for Trayvon's mom as well, she being human and all.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I don't recall you having a problem using other peoples statements (girlfriend, mary cutcher)

Your recollection fails you.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8181651&postcount=5517

Immediately after the gunshot, Cutcher and her roommate reported seeing Martin face-down with Zimmerman straddling him two to three doors down from where the fight was reported to have taken place.

Remind me again, how does that fit into Zimmerman's narrative?

You take her word from a TV interview. Just saying...

And I think the latter is more likely than the former. Or maybe those particular neighbors are friends with Zimmerman and are covering for him.

Again, a butterfly bandage is used to keep a wound closed. If anyone has an explanation for how a wound that needed a bandage to be kept close the following day was staying closed on its own an hour or so after it was inflicted, I'd love to hear it.

And as Unabogie pointed out, injuries appearing the next day don't mean a whole lot. Show me the EMT report.

Again, I'm sure we'll eventually see it. So you don't believe additional witness statements. Or maybe you believe them, but it's all part of the GZ conspiracy. Either way, I get it. You don't believe anyone about anything.

 

[RandFan]

Contrary to what some people claimed, I don't think most people want to see Zimmerman "pay". They wanted his claims to be aired in public and to make him defend the taking of a life. The anger wasn't about Zimmerman perhaps being acquitted, but about the police just letting him go on the same night he killed Martin.

That's being demonstrated by the way the story died down the way it did. This shows that people wanted a trial, not a verdict.

At least that's my perspective.

Agreed. Good post.

 

[johnny karate]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8181651&postcount=5517


You take her word from a TV interview. Just saying...

No, I don't. I was making a point. A point that I quite clearly explained in my very next post:

I'm getting a bit confused about which witnesses saw what. And who actually kept to their initial testimony.

That's my point. No clear narrative can be elicited from the body of witness accounts, so it's disingenuous to use it selectively as a factual basis for drawing conclusions.

Context is everything.

Again, I'm sure we'll eventually see it. So you don't believe additional witness statements. Or maybe you believe them, but it's all part of the GZ conspiracy. Either way, I get it. You don't believe anyone about anything.

It's not a matter of believing the witnesses. They may very well have seen Zimmerman sporting those bandages. It's a matter of how what witnesses claim to have seen fits into the body of evidence. And what these witnesses saw doesn't fit.

Unless - and this will be the third time I'm asking - you care to explain how a wound that needed a bandage to be kept closed the following day was staying closed on its own an hour or so after it was inflicted.

 

[sgtbaker]

What, do you think you're special or something? The rest of us have spent over 200 pages doing it. If we can, so can you.

I don't think... I know! My mother told me so.

 

[sgtbaker]

And again, I don't think you can fault his mother for deciding that the man who killed her son and then claimed he had it coming, is lying and murdered him. What do you expect? She just wants to "hear all the facts because gosh, maybe my son really is a thug?" The guy killed her son. That's not in dispute. If someone killed one of my family members and then claimed it was because they were attacked by him, I'd be pretty sure whether or not that sounded in character or not. I know my family, and it would come off as a lie. I'd guess that's true for Trayvon's mom as well, she being human and all.

If you take the argument from emotion out of your statement, you still have a decision of guilt.

 

[epepke]

People speaking on behalf of the Martin Family and I've even heard the mother say it, long before he was arrested.

Yeah. Also, I don't see how even in the most fevered emotions of those who believe that Zimmerman is the Grand Imperial Poohbah of the KKK, the American Nazi Party, and the Knights Templar combined, that a charge beyond voluntary manslaughter could be contemplated. A charge of murder, even second-degree, has the flavor of a bad joke, as if intended both to 1) impress the public, and 2) result in acquittal.

 

[Freddy]

If you take the argument from emotion out of your statement, you still have a decision of guilt.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Trayvon's mother is biased in this matter, but I hardly think it reasonable to expect the mother of the person killed to be unbiased. Same for other family members, and friends of the deceased. Bias is expected from people with a personal connection to one of the parties. That's exactly why they can't be on the jury.

I do think public figures who don't know Trayvon or his family (or care about them, frankly) should avoid using such language, but it's a free country. It won't influence the result of the trial, although it could contribute to post-verdict violence, depending on the outcome.

 

[sgtbaker]

I don't think anyone is disputing that Trayvon's mother is biased in this matter, but I hardly think it reasonable to expect the mother of the person killed to be unbiased. Same for other family members, and friends of the deceased. Bias is expected from people with a personal connection to one of the parties. That's exactly why they can't be on the jury.

I do think public figures who don't know Trayvon or his family (or care about them, frankly) should avoid using such language, but it's a free country. It won't influence the result of the trial, although it could contribute to post-verdict violence, depending on the outcome.

People speaking on behalf of the Martin Family and I've even heard the mother say it, long before he was arrested.

I just wanted to point out that my original comment was that people didn't just want an arrest, people had decided guilt ahead of time. My original statement had the mother added in as an extra not as the sole example of the verdict before the trial.

 

[RandFan]

I just wanted to point out that my original comment was that people didn't just want an arrest, people had decided guilt ahead of time. My original statement had the mother added in as an extra not as the sole example of the verdict before the trial.

I honestly think a significant percentage of the population were upset with the presumption of lack of probable cause. Sure there is some percentage of the population that is convinced of Zimmerman's guilt. Neither of us knows what that percentage is. Regardless of the ratio, not everyone who was upset with the lack of an arrest were opposed to due process and Zimmerman's rights.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Unless - and this will be the third time I'm asking - you care to explain how a wound that needed a bandage to be kept closed the following day was staying closed on its own an hour or so after it was inflicted.

Quite easily actually, new wounds can easily pull apart after several hours and need stitching or other methods to put them back. I was fencing a number of years back (the fence type fencing, not the swords type) and when I cut a wire it sprung back and slit my palm quite badly. After the bleeding stopped the wound had closed enough that I was about to finish the day out without a bandage (about 3 hours,) but a few hours after getting home it reopened and I had to get it treated.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Precisely. Zimmerman wouldn't be the first person to hurt himself to make a claim of self-defense look more plausible. On the night he killed Trayvon Martin, the police came almost immediately and there were people around, so he had less of an opportunity to hurt himself. If the police let him go but he still felt in legal jeopardy (which he should have), then he would have ample motive to simply hit himself in the nose and head and drive himself to the hospital.

He was treated by EMS who no doubt made notes of his injuries, taken to the police station, observed by police officers, and likely photographed there. And then he went home and beat himself up to support his story that he had injuries. Makes sense to me.

 

[curi0us]

There was debate before over how manipulative the young looking TM photo should be viewed on the grounds that the Martin family may not have had better photos so I thought these more recent TM photos the family had were relevant:
http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-Prom-Picture-Photos-exclusive?gpage=2#gtop

 

[Freddy]

I just wanted to point out that my original comment was that people didn't just want an arrest, people had decided guilt ahead of time. My original statement had the mother added in as an extra not as the sole example of the verdict before the trial.

Fair enough. I give Martin's family and friends a pass for pre-judging (taking those statements with an appropriate grain of salt, of course). Others, not so much, although it is easy to understand how someone relying on the early media reports might have been led to unfounded conclusions. I was one of them, although my opinion on the matter was only ever tentative, and I have become more skeptical that Zimmerman is guilty of a crime (though I don't think he did nothing wrong, either), unless there is evidence that isn't in the affidavit.

I agree with Randfan that many people really did just want to see that the case was being investigated with appropriate vigor and thoroughness, but it also seems obvious to me that many others have indeed already made up their minds, and did so some time ago. That sort of thing is inevitable in a high-profile case like this. While it is regrettable, I don't think it will interfere with the judicial process.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

There was debate before over how manipulative the young looking TM photo should be viewed on the grounds that the Martin family may not have had better photos so I thought these more recent TM photos the family had were relevant:
http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-Prom-Picture-Photos-exclusive?gpage=2#gtop

Maybe more accurate but still just a young kid with his entire life in front of him.

 

[sgtbaker]

Fair enough. I give Martin's family and friends a pass for pre-judging (taking those statements with an appropriate grain of salt, of course). Others, not so much, although it is easy to understand how someone relying on the early media reports might have been led to unfounded conclusions.

I agree with Randfan that many people really did just want to see that the case was being investigated with appropriate vigor and thoroughness, but it also seems obvious to me that many others have indeed already made up their minds, and did so some time ago. That sort of thing is inevitable in a high-profile case like this. While it is regrettable, I don't think it will interfere with the judicial process.

I don't think it will either. I think he can get a fair trial. The statement I was arguing against was the claim that the hoopla died down after the arrest as proof that all people wanted was an arrest. I beg to differ, the hoopla died down because there is nothing more to report. I know I am not alone in thinking that there will be, at the very least, civil unrest if Zimmerman gets a not guilty verdict.

 

[Freddy]

I don't think it will either. I think he can get a fair trial. The statement I was arguing against was the claim that the hoopla died down after the arrest as proof that all people wanted was an arrest. I beg to differ, the hoopla died down because there is nothing more to report. I know I am not alone in thinking that there will be, at the very least, civil unrest if Zimmerman gets a not guilty verdict.

We agree, then.