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The root cause of Africa's problems?

its just crazy to use Israel as an example in the debate here.
 
They've got other resources. More minerals, oil and natural gas than Europe. But they remain backwards and undeveloped. I think culture is the better explanation rather than domestic animals. Domestic animals have nothing to do with bad government, corruption, cronyism, superstition, tribal warfare, Communism, Islamic supremacism, piracy ect.
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That's Africa's problem right there. Them eight things.
 
its just crazy to use Israel as an example in the debate here.

Most of the African nations have borders that were pretty arbitarily laid out but the nations weren't parachuted into place in the same way or for the same reasons or with the same backing that Israel was; I agree that it's not a particularly helpful counter-example.

As far as the "Government Interference" argument goes, I think part of the problem in parts of Africa is actually that the government interference is still driving along tribal lines that were laid out centuries ago; I think that India suffers in similar ways.

Unless and until a way is found to mitigate that I don't think they're ever going to solve the problems. Britain and other colonial nations found a way to do it by putting a metaphorical (or even literal) boot on the neck and telling them to knock it off, but we're not allowed to do that any more and the old tensions simply never went away.

tl;dr: Until a country's people stop thinking of other people as a subclass not worthy of consideration, the country will never prosper.
 
Rhodesia was the breadbasket of Africa under the British. Under Mugabe, Zimbabwe is wracked with malnutrition and famine. Western culture gets around limitations of resources and environment.

Look at Israel. Sand and rocks with no oil but an economy more vibrant and energetic than anything the Arabs came up with.

Culture matters. Ideas matter.
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When you GoogleEarth Israel, it stands out from its neighbors.. Lotsa green. That stops at the borders which makes it so obvious. Those other countries have the same sand and rocks, but can't seem to work with that.
 
Most of the African nations have borders that were pretty arbitarily laid out but the nations weren't parachuted into place in the same way or for the same reasons or with the same backing that Israel was; I agree that it's not a particularly helpful counter-example.

As far as the "Government Interference" argument goes, I think part of the problem in parts of Africa is actually that the government interference is still driving along tribal lines that were laid out centuries ago; I think that India suffers in similar ways.

Unless and until a way is found to mitigate that I don't think they're ever going to solve the problems. Britain and other colonial nations found a way to do it by putting a metaphorical (or even literal) boot on the neck and telling them to knock it off, but we're not allowed to do that any more and the old tensions simply never went away.

tl;dr: Until a country's people stop thinking of other people as a subclass not worthy of consideration, the country will never prosper.

i hope that is true today, it was not in the past.
 
i hope that is true today, it was not in the past.

I'm not so sure that it's necessarily changed; if you didn't care whether your peasantry was reasonably happy then your elite wouldn't prosper either, or at least not for long.
 
Speaking of Spain, a couple of years ago I red that Spain made more works of literary or scientific significance available in Spanish every year through authorship and translation than the total number of works of literary or scientific significance available in Arabic. This doesn't take into account the works from the rest of Spanish-speaking world, it's just Spain. I don't know if the number is still accurate, but the Arabic world didn't significantly change in that regard (yet).

It's quite evident where the difference is knowledge is coming from, and it's certainly anything but random.

McHrozni
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The Arabs were the leaders of the world in knowledge. And then went stupid about 500 years ago. And been whining about that lost stature ever since.
 
I'm not so sure that it's necessarily changed; if you didn't care whether your peasantry was reasonably happy then your elite wouldn't prosper either, or at least not for long.

caring is very relative :)

im pretty sure alot of slave owners took good care of their property and fed it well enough so it was able to fullfill its purpose.
 
its just crazy to use Israel as an example in the debate here.


^^^ This. Israel is an outlier in many ways.

1. Much of what is considered "Israeli culture" is largely engineered over the past 150 years. (Example: Hebrew, outside of liturgical use, was a dead language until resurrected by Ben Yehuda et al in the 19th century.)
2. Considering the prominence of Haredim and other Orthodox within Israeli society and politics, the notion that Israel and the West belong to the same "culture" is questionable at best.
3. The amount of financial, ideological, political, and military support from the West makes it nigh impossible to objectively test the claim that Israeli success is due to "culture."

Of course, the way people are using the term "culture" is ridiculous. Describing Africa, a continent with more genetic diversity than the rest of the human species combined, as a singular "bad culture" reveals nothing more than ignorance of both Africa and the term "culture."

No modern anthropologist, sociologist, or historian buys into the idea of "superior vs. inferior cultures." The thinly-veiled racism of that sort of ethnocentrism went out of fashion in the early 20th century, and the final nail in its coffin was administered by the brutality of the Nazi regime*.



* That is not a Godwin. Cultural superiority of the "Aryan race" was a central part of Nazi ideology.
 
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That's Africa's problem right there. Them eight things.

I would add poverty and AIDS (guess that would fall under "etc."), but largely yes, that's correct. And in that order too, whodathunkit?
 
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The Arabs were the leaders of the world in knowledge. And then went stupid about 500 years ago. And been whining about that lost stature ever since.

That's true, although I think they didn't go stupid, but rather failed to advance any. I think that the present Arab world is actually more conductive to science and technology than it was 500 years ago, albeit not by much. By contrast, Europe (for example) is so much more conductive to science and technology it simply ceased to even be a race some 400 years ago or so, and the rate of differance increased exponentially ever since.

McHrozni
 
No modern anthropologist, sociologist, or historian buys into the idea of "superior vs. inferior cultures." The thinly-veiled racism of that sort of ethnocentrism went out of fashion in the early 20th century, and the final nail in its coffin was administered by the brutality of the Nazi regime*.

So the Arabs fell behind Europeans not because European culture made a dramatic shift to the better but because ... ?

I hope someone blames the Jews :)

McHrozni
 
So the Arabs fell behind Europeans not because European culture made a dramatic shift to the better but because ... ?

Jews.
(Had to.)


Seriously, if there were simple answers to questions like that, we wouldn't have fields of study like history, sociology, anthropology, archaeology, etc. The list of factors involved in these sorts of trends is really, really, really long.
 
That's true, although I think they didn't go stupid, but rather failed to advance any. I think that the present Arab world is actually more conductive to science and technology than it was 500 years ago, albeit not by much. By contrast, Europe (for example) is so much more conductive to science and technology it simply ceased to even be a race some 400 years ago or so, and the rate of differance increased exponentially ever since.

McHrozni
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I had an Iraqi roommate in college for 3 years..(I used to tell him, "For a Semite, you sure are anti-Semitic!) I see and talk to Muslims at the Mall every day.
Once they get away from their home countries, they fit right in to our culture.
Running shops and things, being industrious.
I was talking to a woman from Vietnam who went back there a few years ago, for awhile, she said, but has not returned... :(
I wouldn't say any large number of people like the Europeans of old were a "race", when there's the blending all that warfare creates, through rape.
Were it possible to DNA for specific origins... Nordic, Mediterranean, etc, I bet the blends would be interesting and no one would be pure anything.
 
Jews.
(Had to.)


Seriously, if there were simple answers to questions like that, we wouldn't have fields of study like history, sociology, anthropology, archaeology, etc. The list of factors involved in these sorts of trends is really, really, really long.
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Bernard Lewis...."What Went Wrong".
 
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I had an Iraqi roommate in college for 3 years..(I used to tell him, "For a Semite, you sure are anti-Semitic!) I see and talk to Muslims at the Mall every day.
Once they get away from their home countries, they fit right in to our culture.
Running shops and things, being industrious.

This is what I'd expect from flexible people held back by culture.

Jews.
(Had to.)

Thank you :)

McHrozni
 

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