Gaddafi's "girl executioner," Libyan rebel torture, and truth

[Virus]

People have the right to resist fascism and totalitarianism. Gaddafi's Libya was the type of Stalinist-style state that had pretty much ceased to exist in rest modern world.

If the rebels won they would behave the same way regardless of whether they had a NATO assist or not.

 

[geni]

People have the right to resist fascism and totalitarianism.

Absolutely. NATO however is free not to support them.

Gaddafi's Libya was the type of Stalinist-style state that had pretty much ceased to exist in rest modern world.

Not really. A Stalinist-style state wouldn't have been so easy to overthrow. Libya wasn't isolationist enough either.

If the rebels won they would behave the same way regardless of whether they had a NATO assist or not.

Questionable but not really relevant to the issue of should NATO have got involved or not.

 

[Bill Thompson]

My first idea after reading the article is this. What if it was a dude? Would we feel just as much sympathy and compassion if it was a guy who was "forced" to execute rebels out of sexual and physical abuse?

 

[JihadJane]

People have the right to resist fascism and totalitarianism. Gaddafi's Libya was the type of Stalinist-style state that had pretty much ceased to exist in rest modern world.

If the rebels won they would behave the same way regardless of whether they had a NATO assist or not.

So you support terrorists, don't you, Virus?

 

[Virus]

They asked for support. The Arab League asked for support. The UN authorized operations to protect the rebels.

NATO gave the rebels a chance at building a better Libya. It's not their fault if they blow it.

 

[JihadJane]

They asked for support. The Arab League asked for support. The UN authorized operations to protect the rebels.

NATO gave the rebels a chance at building a better Libya. It's not their fault if they blow it.

Pathetic.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Those non-existent mercenaries of Quackdaffi also made quite a stir in Mali. Who would've thought that a group of people that doesn't exist at all could do so much trouble when they come back to their home country. Or have a country to come home to, come to think of it. Can you have a home country if you don't exist at all? Where do Unicorns live?

Not here to argue that point again, but for my own reference I'd like to see that Mali story. I don't think I've heard about that. A simple link will do.

My first idea after reading the article is this. What if it was a dude? Would we feel just as much sympathy and compassion if it was a guy who was "forced" to execute rebels out of sexual and physical abuse?

Probably not quite, for various reasons I'd consider semi-valid on average.

@ Virus: NATO "gave them a chance" that "they" would then "blow," and oh well, that's "their" problem. Do you realize how many chances and theys and methods of blowage might be conflated, confused, and mungled together unseen within these uselessly vague statements of yours? Just step back for a moment and realize whose problem this has become and ask what they ever screwed up to deserve it.

Thank you.

@ Stilicho: I'll take your word the one guy is a quack. I was under the impression he latched onto the story, as opposed to originating it. Admittedly, not a good sign, and we're still short on confirmation and proof, but it has independent origins that this guy's foibles wouldn't explain away.

My own take: Having looked into other cases of supposed confessions that contradict each other and the physical evidence, is captive people are being widely coerced into corroborating rebel myths they write to justify themselves. We know there's at least as much torture as has been credibly reported, and probably quite a bit more.

Nisreen in her sick freak show exposition appeared drugged, frightened, confused, and deeply uncomfortable. She did not look liberated to finally tell her tale. "Confessing" to a rather silly crime that further demonized the regime. It makes little sense they would have a capable gunman waste his energy forcing a girl to do the killing, just for added humiliation and to corrupt another youth. Cartoon elaborations. Possible, sure, but...

So, even if this online interview is entirely fake, my money's still on torture or at least serious coercion. That's why the thread has three themes - the "girl executioner," torture, and truth. The centerpiece invites discussion that touches on the other thorny problems most people here probably haven't even considered as they shake their heads at each new reports of regime wickedness being unearthed, sorry for the Libyan people that we didn't act sooner and save them years ago, again patting ourselves on the back for finally "giving them a chance."

Value added? Check.

 

[eirik]

That's been stated ad nauseum and is genrally accepted as true. I know it sounds crazy to state otherwise, but video proof does not exist. That's curious.

(..)

ETA: If anyone can find a video showing an unarmed person actually being downed with a bullet, I can almost guarantee I've already explained it. Details available on request.

I know this sounds crazy, but there is no video of gassing of Jews either. Or Breivik gunning down kids at Utoya. Curious.

But if there is, I could probly explain it.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I know this sounds crazy, but there is no video of gassing of Jews either. Or Breivik gunning down kids at Utoya. Curious.

But if there is, I could probly explain it.

(Something similar to) Godwinned and failed in a few other ways. Thanks for a comment though. They're like fiber, they keep things moving.

 

[geni]

I know this sounds crazy, but there is no video of gassing of Jews either.

Thats pre-camera phones.

Or Breivik gunning down kids at Utoya. Curious.

Smaller numbers and I wouldn't bet against there being a video somewhere. The reality is that outside of north korea there aren't many places where you can shoot protestors on any scale without some kind of video turning up and the number is getting smaller every year.

For example even as far back as 84 there is film of the people shot outside the Libyan embassy.

Certianly there is a noticable lack of weapons in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wow47cU1Jk

 

[Caustic Logic]

It's off-topic, but I brought it up and it's challenging my credibility. So...

There were tons of camera-phones floating around taking videos of living protesters and dead people, but not the middle part where one became the other.
My article on evidence for how the killings happened
challenge for video to contradict me

I've been able to find THREE videos showing unarmed Libyans shot down. They show two shootings, one from two angles, in an angry funeral procession. They had molotov coctails, but that doesn't count as militant. By that I mean machine guns, rockets, and tanks.

Both shootings are on the same street in Al Baida, Feb. 17, a few minutes apart. The shots are supposed to be from police down the street, captured by two rooftop rebel videos that show the police line and the procession and let us make the connection. But there's good evidence the snipers are on the roofs next to the cameras, especially in the first video. Provocateur false flag sniper attack is my guess. We saw those in Bosnia and Kosovo too, and probably now in Syria.

Visual explanation here

Anyone finds a video and it's one of those three, I've offered my explanation already. If it's something else, it's new, so bring it to the challenge post. It's best not to argue it any further here.

 

[Caustic Logic]

People have the right to resist fascism and totalitarianism.

However you brand it, the West said they had a right to resist, overthrow, and cleans the society of the sitting government and its ideology. They were able to force it through.

Gaddafi's Libya was the type of Stalinist-style state that had pretty much ceased to exist in rest modern world.

However you brand it, it's true states like Libya get rarer in proportion to their aggressive destruction by those who disapprove of their various policies.

If the rebels won they would behave the same way regardless of whether they had a NATO assist or not.

Hypothetical based on an impossible scenario. Libya would have righted itself if left alone (that is, no follow-up on the initial conspiracies that started the "protests"). IMO and contrary to "responsibility to Panic" rhetoric, it would have happened with less violence, destruction, torture and violation of Human Rights (but less investment opportunities) than how it did happen. After all, as Libya's government, they'd have to live with and among the aftermath. The NATO-Gulf Arab alliance can walk away with fuzzy notions of having helped.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Thats pre-camera phones.



Smaller numbers and I wouldn't bet against there being a video somewhere. The reality is that outside of north korea there aren't many places where you can shoot protestors on any scale without some kind of video turning up and the number is getting smaller every year.

For example even as far back as 84 there is film of the people shot outside the Libyan embassy.

Certianly there is a noticable lack of weapons in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wow47cU1Jk

Bringing this up after my points about snipers in al-Baida, and the West's long-running demonization of the "insane" and "brutal" Gaddafi regime makes it hard not to at least hint at the problems with the Fletcher incident. It's certainly another thing to think about, but most of our thinking happens inside small-ish pre-fabricated boxes, doesn't it?

 

[Caustic Logic]

http://www.amnesty.ie/news/libya-ntc-must-investigate-death-another-tawargha-man-under-torture

The Libyan National Transitional Council (NTC) must act immediately to investigate and prosecute abuses against the Tawargha community of black Libyans, said Amnesty International today, after another Tawargha man was tortured to death in a Misratah detention centre.

The body of 44-year-old father of two Barnous Bous’a was delivered to his family on 16 April. It was covered with bruises and cuts, including an open wound to the back of the head.
[...]
On Monday, Misratah’s local leadership denied widespread reports of torture and other abuses committed by the city’s militias, signalling that “reconciliation between the two towns [Misratah and Tawargha] was probably impossible at the moment” and that “some alternative solution for the Tawargha people” was needed.

An interesting character, head of the Misrata Military Council, Ibrahim Bietalmal/Beatalmal,/Betamal (Beat 'em all). He was simply the jailor when he presented an AFP reporter with one of his wards. The guy did have a cigarette burn, but not from this place, he said. And he says he burned 150 men alive at the Khamis shed massacre, August 22. The alleged even was the killing of 106 prisoners, with 51 escaped, on Aug. 23, with the bodies only burned 2-3 days later. But he couldn't be lying under torture, because he wasn't tortured, even though he deserved it.

“If we wanted to torture these prisoners, Khalifa is the best candidate for that. He has burnt alive 150 men,” Beatelmal said, as he smoked a cigarette.

“When he came to our prison he weighed 65 kilos. Now he is more than 80 kilos. That would not happen if you are tortured. I am angry at these human rights people. I don't even want to see their faces.”

Elsewhere:

"According a report by UPI, the head of Misrata’s military council, Ibrahim Beitelmal, responded to the charges of torture by denouncing human rights groups in terms that could incite violence against them. “I think that the people working under the guise of human rights organizations or Doctors Without Borders are Gaddafi’s fifth column,” he said."
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/feb2012/liby-f04.shtml

Yeah, that one.

Now we know it's not the groups that are the real problem here - they can and do point to their hard work believing every allegation (almost) against the Gaddafi regime to help legitimize the rebels' initial NATO-enforced takeover. But now the problem is the abuses, specifically the ones that are reported to them and they decide can't be ignored. As soon as ol' Ibrahim figures that out, it'll be much easier to sell that the Tawerghans and other "suspected loyalists" are, quite naturally, the "fifth column" making up all these lies about torture. Luckily, he's in charge, no checks or balances handy, and such conspirators can be dealt with. They can find out who's talking and get them to be very quiet, and terrorize others into keeping it all quiet. Then no more reports, no pressure, no problem...

We just need to give the Libyans time to work these things out, right?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Updates: Ibrahim Beat'emall's model of no torturer, Ibrahim Khalifa ... faker. Three names with different stories. See here: http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2012/05/shed-massacre-witnesses-executioner.html

See also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ9Mo6geOxQ
Surrounded by fakers. Not a damn real thing about that encounter.

And it was on the health of this actor Ibrahim that Ibrahim Beat'emall implicitly banned human rights groups from Misrata for daring to give credence to the lies of Tawerghan slaves.

On the girl executioner, I have no news. On her claims, however, there is new account by a guy from Sirte. He says he was in a convoy, had a limb or two blown off in an attack, was taken prisoner to Misrata, hidden from NGO's, and witnessed horrific abuses. He was freed after his family and some people from Sirte paid a huge bribe, and all encouraged him to speak up, especially those still inside.

Audio and transcript here:
http://libyanfreepress.wordpress.co...rtured-for-months-in-misuratas-jails-3-video/

There's a guy he names cooked in a giant cooker, a Tawerghan apparently. Widespread rape of men, people sliced up. The claims sound extreme, but all in all nothing sounds propagandistic or scripted. I believe the guy. Extreme things are being done to people forced by NATO intervention to endure things as bad as anything rumored to be happening back 15 months ago.

Pro-Gaddafi site. Feel free to ignore, probably made up, huh?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Also, the problem has been thus far framed as militia-run detention centers vs. reasonable ones run by the liberal new powerless NTC "government." The answer to abuse was to get the prisoners under controlof the national government. May 10, it was reported people were being tortured, including to death, in NTC prisons too.

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Several prisoners likely were tortured to death at a detention center in Libya under government control, the United Nations said on Thursday as it urged the country to make stamping out such practices a top priority.

Libya's Justice Ministry has control of 31 detention centers with some 3,000 detainees, but about 4,000 prisoners are still in the custody of Libyan revolutionary brigades, U.N. special envoy for Libya Ian Martin told the U.N. Security Council.

Of the detention centers under government authority, Martin said "control over these facilities is often shared with other parties, including the brigades that had been running them."

The U.N. human rights agency and aid groups have accused the brigades of torturing detainees, many of whom are sub-Saharan Africans suspected of fighting for the toppled government of Muammar Gaddafi during Libya's nine-month civil war.

"Mistreatment and torture of detainees continue," Martin said. "UNSMIL (the U.N. Mission in Libya) expressed deep concern regarding the deaths of three individuals at a detention center in Misrata ... under the authority of the Ministry of Interior."

"The deaths all occurred on April 13 and we have credible information that they were a direct result of torture, as well as information that at least seven other persons were tortured at the same facility," he said.
...
Martin said allegations of torture had also been made at detention facilities elsewhere in Libya, including Tripoli, Zawiya and Zintan.

Source: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-libya-unbre8491lk-20120510,0,2026959.story
Since pulled. Alternate source:
http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL1E8GAM1D20120510

But the torture was probably justified. You should hear the crimes they confessed to! Horrific stuff!

(Giving Libyans more time to sort out their differences, plenty outside help and intervention already for one year)