Gaddafi's "girl executioner," Libyan rebel torture, and truth

[Caustic Logic]

Anybody remember Gaddafi's 19-year-old "girl executioner," Nisreen al-Forgani? After the fall of Tripoli, she was shown to the world media, shackled to a hospital bed, explaining her sins. She'd been forced into the "popular gaurds," raped by its director Mansour Daw, abused and stuff and finally made to kill rebel captives at gunpoint herself. Under threat by African mercenaries, she shot dead 11 before she couldn't stand it, leapt out the window, was hit by a truck, got caught by rebels, something.

See: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...en-19-admits-shooting-11-rebel-prisoners.html
R. Pendlebury there noted "Her eyes were beautiful but completely blank, whether from shock, painkillers or both" and that she spoke "slowly and almost disbelievingly" while recounting the bizarre tale, and was frequently harangued by guards and nurses in "an unpleasant freak show."

As one soft-hearted lady wrote "from her hospital bed, she's finally able to tell her story..."

Away from the hospital bed, and the "painkillers," she was unable to continue speaking this truth. She's allegedly escaped, somehow, and was recently in Tunisia preparing to tell of her ordeal at a human rights conference (no news on what or when). Preferring to remain anonymous, but giving all of Nisreen's details, she takes back all the stuff she said, and explains why she said it; she was tortured (needles under the fingernails, electricity, etc.), psychologically manipulated, made to watch friends executed, and a man boiled alive (that was a group lesson for her and many other captives). She says what happened is she finally broke and started saying what they told her the media needed to hear. More demonization of the former government and thus "justification" for their own brutality and deception.

See here, grain of salt and all that:
http://libyasos.blogspot.com/2012/04/shocking-interview-with-girl-who-had.html
and here: http://english.pravda.ru/world/africa/10-04-2012/121053-libya_nato-0/

For those behind on the news that the "freedom fighters" are torturing Libyans brazenly, in huge numbers, and often to death, see:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/news...as-are-commiting-widespread-abuses-against-su
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-16752601
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/25/us-libya-lawlessness-idUSTRE80O18P20120125

Mansour Daw in custody: http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/01/31/191670.html
Dr. Abuzaid Dorda in custody:
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2011/10/dr-dorda.html
Dr. Omar Brebesh in custody, briefly:
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/02/02/libya-diplomat-dies-militia-custody
Why not the prime minister?
http://www.tunisia-live.net/2012/01...ions-oppose-extradition-of-baghdadi-mahmoudi/

More:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...freedom-fighters-turned-brutal-torturers.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-torturing-suspected-gaddafi-mercenaries.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-zoo-cage-force-fed-flags-Libyan-rebels.html

Weak rebel/NTC denial:
http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE80U02A20120131

The aid agency Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) said last Thursday it had stopped its work in detention centres in the city of Misrata because its medical staff were being asked to patch up detainees mid-way through torture sessions so they could go back for more abuse.

Libyan Foreign Minister Ashour bin Khayyal said it was not the policy of the ruling National Transitional Council, which has promised to make a break with Gaddafi-era practices and respect human rights, to use torture.

"Gaddafi's remnants committed actions that were an aggression to the revolution and to Libya and they will now receive the treatment they deserve," Khayyal told Reuters on the sidelines of an African Union summit in Addis Ababa.

Meaning, they won't be tortured, right? He continued:

"As a government, it is not our policy at all to commit torture because we, the Libyan people, suffered under these policies and we strongly reject it," Khayyal said.

"If there was torture, then it was not with the knowledge of the government or by the agreement of the government either. It may be actions by individuals, but we have not heard about the report you mention."

They can seemingly promise justice by torture to these captives, but not "as a government." Their proxies: "individuals," militias, special units, the cosmos and Allah himself, well that might just be who's making sure, systematically, that it's happening as promised and as the demonized devils deserve. The NTC does oppose torture of these human scum, and if they hear about it, they'll put an end to it, if possible, which it isn't. The militias are their muscle. They hadn't even heard about it yet, despite the rest of the world hearing about it. They try their hardest, but find it very hard, perhaps, to hear certain things clearly these days...

Sounds fair enough, right?

 

[Darth Rotor]

(Long and somewhat interesting post)
Sounds fair enough, right?

What did you expect?

Check out the history of four revolutions:
American Revolution (1776 and so forth)
French Revolution (1789 and so forth)
Russian Revolution (1917 and so forth)
Iranian Revolution (1979 and so forth)

You will note a salient feature in the last three that you won't notice in the first one. In fairly short order, a bit of "mob rule" and "terror" gets underway once the major power vacuum is established. It takes a while to restore order, which typically results in a lyric by the Who ...
Meet the New Boss
Same as the Old Boss

As it's early yet in Libya, there is some hope that things won't revert to yet another autocrat's rule, but the transition period can be expected to be bloody.

It's the nature of civil wars.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Oh, okay.

So at the least, Darth Rotor would say this guy and many others were wrong in February:

Please note (to media): Libya is NOT at civil war, this is a state and regime attacking a whole population

And this guy in October:

We called Libya a civil war and intervened to help one side win, as we did in Kosovo. But Libya was not a civil war. The dictator didn’t have deep enough support to turn it into one. It was a revolution, a people against a regime, rising up without any instigation from us, with nothing but rage, humiliation and hope to guide them. We gave them air cover and they made a revolution.

The people wouldn't be torturing each other in the thousands for past affiliations and loyalties if that liar were telling the truth.

So sometimes after we decide to destroy a government's ability to attack - or defend -its people, armed mobs will take over and start a purge ...

It might be normal, but is it a good thing?

How many of the justifications for intervention were even true? How many just baseless accusations serving as thin excuses?

Are there lessons to be learned from how horribly our intervention ended for thousands of Libyans and black and Slavic foreigners inside Libya?

Lessons for Syria?

Oh and I forgot to mention, Nisreen says she WAS raped, many times, along with others - by the rebels. But hey, messy stuff, whaddya gonna do, intervene? That would be crazy. We got these guys access to the loyalists, and our work is now done. Time to repeat with Syria, then maybe Iran, Venzuela, Zimbabwe, Russia, China, Bolivia, Mexico...

 

[Marduk]

Time to repeat with Syria, then maybe Iran, Venzuela, Zimbabwe, Russia, China, Bolivia, Mexico...

you left France off the list

maybe Argentina ???

 

[Caustic Logic]

you left France off the list

maybe Argentina ???

France has been good so far, but they better not stray from the path. Argentian, maybe...

Forgot North Korea, Pakistan, Ecuador, Cuba, maybe S. Africa, India if they get too uppity over their BRICS-bloc stuff...

Iceland could be a problem but a small one.

 

[Virus]

NATO gave them a chance. It's not the West's fault if they blow it.

 

[Caustic Logic]

NATO gave them a chance. It's not the West's fault if they blow it.

Who was given a chance at what, and who blew it by doing what?

A lot of Libyans asked to be given a chance to NOT be forced under rebel control but NATO and the rebels did not let them have that chance. Islamist lynch mobs and endemic torture and a reign of terror, perhaps. Free market reforms and investment opportunities, almost certain to some degree. See the decision made.

 

[Virus]

Gaddafi started it.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Gaddafi started it.

Nuh-uh!

 

[timhau]

Away from the hospital bed, and the "painkillers," she was unable to continue speaking this truth. She's allegedly escaped, somehow, and was recently in Tunisia preparing to tell of her ordeal at a human rights conference (no news on what or when). Preferring to remain anonymous, but giving all of Nisreen's details, she takes back all the stuff she said, and explains why she said it; she was tortured (needles under the fingernails, electricity, etc.), psychologically manipulated, made to watch friends executed, and a man boiled alive (that was a group lesson for her and many other captives). She says what happened is she finally broke and started saying what they told her the media needed to hear. More demonization of the former government and thus "justification" for their own brutality and deception.

See here, grain of salt and all that:
http://libyasos.blogspot.com/2012/04/shocking-interview-with-girl-who-had.html
and here: http://english.pravda.ru/world/africa/10-04-2012/121053-libya_nato-0/

A pro-Ghaddafi blog and Pravda Online? There isn't enough salt in the world.

I'm not defending the behavior of Libyan rebels in general, but if your sources on what happened to this particular woman are at that level, you basically have nothing.

 

[Virus]

Nuh-uh!

Do you admit he gunned down unarmed protesters?

 

[geni]

Do you admit he gunned down unarmed protesters?

Are you stating that you have a problem with using lethal force to disperse protesters?

 

[geni]

NATO gave them a chance. It's not the West's fault if they blow it.

NATO picked a winner. Conventional military theory suggests a degree of post combat analysis is a good idea and part of that is deciding if NATO picked the right winner (also considering the possibility that a longer war might have been preferable).

 

[McHrozni]

A pro-Ghaddafi blog and Pravda Online? There isn't enough salt in the world.

I'm not defending the behavior of Libyan rebels in general, but if your sources on what happened to this particular woman are at that level, you basically have nothing.

Those non-existent mercenaries of Quackdaffi also made quite a stir in Mali. Who would've thought that a group of people that doesn't exist at all could do so much trouble when they come back to their home country. Or have a country to come home to, come to think of it. Can you have a home country if you don't exist at all? Where do Unicorns live?

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

Do you admit he gunned down unarmed protesters?

Do you admit your pseudo-snarky drive-by imitation duh-bunking efforts are weak and pointless?

For the benefit of others: Now the human rights abuses are physically real. Before the war, they were just twitter rumors based on conflating two separate groups of people. Only armed militants got themselves killed in the early days, not protesters. The same ones did even more killing in return and stole weapons along the way. That's how "protesters" managed to violently take over half the country in a military sense despite not even trying, and getting massacred along the way. Ever wondered why that makes no sense? Two groups, one of them ignored, but then given air support, and now torturing to death with impunity nationwide.

Congratulations world community. Gold Star for paying attention and protecting human rights.

But either way, even if we accept the standard version of grossly disproportionate villainy, what'shappening now isn't necessary, isn't conducive to truth, peace, reconciliation, stability, prosperity, or anything good. Our leaders pushed hard to create this sorry state of chaos in Libya that has taken so many lives and hasn't stopped yet. Current issues relevance, sound. We're trying to repeat it in Syria.

A pro-Ghaddafi blog and Pravda Online? There isn't enough salt in the world.

I'm not defending the behavior of Libyan rebels in general, but if your sources on what happened to this particular woman are at that level, you basically have nothing.

And, the question is, what behavior would you be defending? There's some uncertanty on all our parts just what is going on there in the shadows, now that the world isn't looking for every atrocity report to justify a war underway.

Should CNN be expected to snatch this up if true but still deniable? That Pravda ran it is immaterial - there's no automatic crap guarantee in that. Libya SOS same - It comes down to the alleged discussion, in a chat forum. Admittedly this isn't proven yet. She's supposed to be getting the account down and documented, but it could quite possibly be 100% hoax. You're right to question it.

What we have irrespective of how the Nisreen story plays out is a known culture where we all know this kind of brutality probably is happening as Libya "corrects" itself. Her alleged claims are generally credible, even if they turn out untrue, because horrible things like this are happening, as we've seen in the few glimpses they didn't sweep under the rug clearly enough ahead of an announced visit.

People just find it boring now that there's no long-hated "dictator" to stomp on. Now it's all tricky and awkward...

 

[timhau]

That Pravda ran it is immaterial - there's no automatic crap guarantee in that.

It's not Pravda, it's Pravda Online. They are not the same thing (or even related); Pravda Online is about as close to an automatic crap guarantee as you can get.

What we have irrespective of how the Nisreen story plays out is a known culture where we all know this kind of brutality probably is happening as Libya "corrects" itself. Her alleged claims are generally credible, even if they turn out untrue, because horrible things like this are happening, as we've seen in the few glimpses they didn't sweep under the rug clearly enough ahead of an announced visit.

So we have this story, which shows us how things really are regardless of whether the story is true or not, because it's credible. Um... what? Why is the story important, then? Because it reinforces your beliefs, whether it checks out or not?

 

[Parsman]

Caustic Logic, I would agree with you that the new rulers in Libya are not so far showing themselves too much of an improvement on Gadaffi. But that I think is the point, and what causes people viewing your argument some worry. Gadaffi was as bad as the rebels towards those opposed to him while he was in power. Despite your denial Libyan security forces at the start of the uprising did fire on unarmed civilian demostrators.

Given this, your defence of Gadaffi and his regime is odd. Your argument that what we have is little or no better so far is valid,but that doesn't mean something better may not emerge out of the chaos.

 

[stilicho]

What did you expect?

Check out the history of four revolutions:
American Revolution (1776 and so forth)
French Revolution (1789 and so forth)
Russian Revolution (1917 and so forth)
Iranian Revolution (1979 and so forth)

You will note a salient feature in the last three that you won't notice in the first one. In fairly short order, a bit of "mob rule" and "terror" gets underway once the major power vacuum is established. It takes a while to restore order, which typically results in a lyric by the Who ...
Meet the New Boss
Same as the Old Boss

As it's early yet in Libya, there is some hope that things won't revert to yet another autocrat's rule, but the transition period can be expected to be bloody.

It's the nature of civil wars.

Point of information, Mr Speaker. You must realise that an extensive campaign was waged in the early US against the "Tories". If they hadn't left of their own volition to Upper Canada or back to the UK they would have been left landless and subject to all the numerous judgements that clogged up the early American judicial system. The only thing that prevented a French or Russian Revolution style mass execution of the "treasonous" was a ready supply of ships and wagons to get them the hell out of Dodge. What do you think would have happened if they'd stayed and tried to legally elect pro-British congressional representatives?



PS: The American Revolution was not a civil war but an insurrection.

@CausticLogic: Timothy Bancroft-Hinchey is a fraud and a failed journalist who decided on his own to revive the Soviet Union unilaterally with the ample assistance of ex-KGB agents and relatives of Communist Party members. He posts extensively at the English language version of the Pravda board as "zhurnalist". He lies, bans without any reason whatsoever, urges on 9/11 conspiraloons, and is a rabid anti-semite.

Nothing under his various pseudonyms is trustworthy.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Caustic Logic, I would agree with you that the new rulers in Libya are not so far showing themselves too much of an improvement on Gadaffi. But that I think is the point, and what causes people viewing your argument some worry. Gadaffi was as bad as the rebels towards those opposed to him while he was in power. Despite your denial Libyan security forces at the start of the uprising did fire on unarmed civilian demostrators.

That's been stated ad nauseum and is genrally accepted as true. I know it sounds crazy to state otherwise, but video proof does not exist. That's curious. The government always said only that army bases and weapons depot were defended (not police stations-evacuated). There's no proof those shot (many were shot) were not involved in the attacks that we know did happen, were successful, and led to the rebels possessing heavy weaponry as early as Feb 18 in the east.

ETA: If anyone can find a video showing an unarmed person actually being downed with a bullet, I can almost guarantee I've already explained it. Details available on request.

Given this, your defence of Gadaffi and his regime is odd. Your argument that what we have is little or no better so far is valid,but that doesn't mean something better may not emerge out of the chaos.

My own opinion is things are now far worse for most people there, but that too sounds crazy and doesn't matter. Clearly those who were disaffected, jailed, often terrorist types are quite happy to be free, armed, in control, and us all just too bored to pay attention anymore... Other more normal people probably are genuinely happier now as well. Not the ones with toenails coming out. Worse for them.

 

[stilicho]

Oh yeah, and Timi also thinks the US got the wrong Saddam Hussein. He claimed once to have seen the dental records of the fake Saddam and the real Saddam and determined that they weren't the same.