JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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Seconded. I started looking into some of those 40+ and it wasn't too long before I started seeing conflicting accounts, changing testimony and testimony taken long after the fact. Time to come clean and prove the validity of your 40+, showing ALL of their testimony and when it was taken.

Thirded. This was my experience as well and yes, I'll admit going through the 40+ left me with the sensation someone was trying to pull a fast one there.

But to what end?
Who benefits by creating senseless confusion about JFK's assassination?
 
Thirded. This was my experience as well and yes, I'll admit going through the 40+ left me with the sensation someone was trying to pull a fast one there.

But to what end?
Who benefits by creating senseless confusion about JFK's assassination?


i don't think its senseless, but rather the frailty of human recollection.

There is a reason eyewitness testimony is not reliable. People forget, fill in voids with speculation etc.

A great many CT's live or die by eyewitnesses to the exclusion of everything else.

Bad move.
 
i don't think its senseless, but rather the frailty of human recollection.

There is a reason eyewitness testimony is not reliable. People forget, fill in voids with speculation etc.

A great many CT's live or die by eyewitnesses to the exclusion of everything else.

Bad move.

Rudimentary psychology shows that a memory is fluid. It will be remembered differently if the questioner changes the phrasing of the question.


This is illustrated by the "simple" left/right mistake between the description of the wound and the drawing, both of which Robert tells us are accurate.


There is a good reason that investigative techniques and forensics have advanced over the centuries. Had human memory been the perfect and reliable source of evidence that Robert and CTs rely on, there would be no need for such advances.
 
There's nothing whatsoever in there about the scientific reproducibility of Wilson's methods. He's just babbling about custody of evidence and access to faithful copies of the photographs for his own purposes. Kindly don't try to turn every question asked of you into an ideological diatribe.

In order for a scientific method or process to be used forensically to yield valid results that qualify as evidence, the process must be described in sufficient detail so as to be comprehensible and acceptable to the relevant body of experts (and ideally, also practicable by them). And it has to be tested first in matters that aren't connected with the facts in dispute (and ideally, by other practitioners). Where was this done for Wilson's method?

You really don't understand at all the concepts of reproducibility and replication in science.

I notice that Wilson claims to have analyzed the backyard photos, whereas you previously stated that he had not, and you have not yet corrected that misconception. Are you sure you're a reliable reporter of Wilson's claims?


Nonsense. I only referred to Wilson pertaining to the autopsy photos. If he also found the B/Y photos fake, then surprise, surprise.
 
One would think that since you've claimed this so often that you would have listed all 40+ witnesses and supplied at least one unaltered quote taken in context from each of them to show that they really do claim to have seen what you say they claim to have seen. But that's OK Robert, we know why you haven't done that.



(Since you often seem to have trouble reading all of the words of a post, I've taken the liberty of putting in bold the words in this post that you are likely to skip and which would change the entire meaning of my post).

Nonsense. Already done that, several times.
 
Nonsense. I only referred to Wilson pertaining to the autopsy photos. If he also found the B/Y photos fake, then surprise, surprise.

Yes. Big surprise the guy found exactly what would benefit him the most, with the methodology that has no verifiable testing, whose results he alone "properly" understands...
 
LOL! And of course you forget that Reibe made a deposition to ARRB and stated in no uncertain terms the photos WERE real, and that Stringer also viewed the photos in 1966 and like Reibe stated and signed an affidavit that states the same thing.

So who you gonna believe Robert?

Shall we post dueling links?

Lets start with Spencer...great excerpt...

Q: Ms. Spencer, you have now had an opportunity to view all of the colored images, both transparencies and prints, that are in the possession of the National Archives related to the autopsy of President Kennedy. Based upon your knowledge, are there any images of the autopsy of President Kennedy that are not included in those views that we saw?
A: The views that we produced at the Photographic Center are not included.

Q: Ms. Spencer, how certain are you that there were other photographs of President Kennedy's autopsy that are not included in the set that you have just seen?
A: I could personally say that they are not included. The only thing I can determine is that because of the pristine condition of the body and the reverence that the body was shown, that—this is speculation on my part—that perhaps the family had the second set shot and developed as possible releases if autopsy pictures were demanded, because at that time, Mrs. Kennedy was attempting to keep all sensationalism out of the funeral and maintain the President's dignity and name.

Q: Are you able to—let's start with a conjecture as to whether the photographs that you developed, and the photographs that you observed today, could have been taken at different times?
A: I would definitely say they were taken at different times.

Q: Is there any question in your mind whether the photographs that you saw today were photographs of President Kennedy?
A: There is not doubt they are pictures of President Kennedy.

Q: Is there any doubt in your mind that the photographs that you saw in November 1963 also were of President Kennedy?
A: No, that was President Kennedy, but between those photographs and the ones that we did, there had to be some massive cosmetic things done to the President's body.

Q: Do you have an opinion as to whether the photographs that you developed in 1963 were taken before or after the photographs that you observed today?
A: I would say probably afterwards.

Q: So you would think that the photographs that you developed were taken after reconstruction of the body?
A: Yes.


Which proves what??????
 
Robert, this is not a court of law. The rules of evidence for a court are not what will convince me. That has no relevance here, just as the etiquette of this forum has no meaning in court. Even your own ettiquette of "baloney" and "one question or no answer" prove those rules are of no import.

But, just to be clear,you understand that doesn't prove you right if it DID apply? Thatpre-requisits for submission, and validation by other evidence in the court room itself arenot thesame thing?

LHO could have been called as a witness. He could claim not to have held the rifle, with no prerequisite. But the fingerprints taken from the rifle invalidate that claim.



You just shot yourself in the foot. Again.

The faint, unreadable fingerprints would never have been allowed as evidence in any court of law.
 
Which proves what??????

Well, apart from the glaringly obvious, that the photos you keep harping on about being "missing" were taken AFTER the body was "reconstructed", it thoroughly undermines the claims you make about the reasons for the "missing" photographs. Do you see anyt mention of a conspiracy, and the wounds being different in that text? Does that not suggest even slightly to you, that you have been using the assertion out of context to suggest something is implied by the questioning that simply is not there?
 
Er... You just confirmed what Jay said (and you are still wrong!). If you are failing to convince jay of your "expert" having expertise in the field under discussion then on what grounds should Jay accept his "expert" knowledge?

Putting aside the delusion that expertise is subjective and that here on Planet Earth we have good, objective scales by which to judge expertise, such as academic, professional and peer review, (the bit you are wrong about), you have failed to substantiate any of the reasonsyou claimed Wilson was an expert. You have failed to show he has any expertise, or his claimed method is accurate. If you fail to do that,why should Jay, or anybody, consider him an"expert" and deffer to his judgement?

How would Wilson be established in your "mind" as an "expert"?????
 
Well, apart from the glaringly obvious, that the photos you keep harping on about being "missing" were taken AFTER the body was "reconstructed", it thoroughly undermines the claims you make about the reasons for the "missing" photographs. Do you see anyt mention of a conspiracy, and the wounds being different in that text? Does that not suggest even slightly to you, that you have been using the assertion out of context to suggest something is implied by the questioning that simply is not there?

There were obviously at least two sets of autopsy photos taken, the real and the fake.
 
Seconded. I started looking into some of those 40+ and it wasn't too long before I started seeing conflicting accounts, changing testimony and testimony taken long after the fact. Time to come clean and prove the validity of your 40+, showing ALL of their testimony and when it was taken.

Conflicting accounts?/? Name one.
 
Thirded. This was my experience as well and yes, I'll admit going through the 40+ left me with the sensation someone was trying to pull a fast one there.

But to what end?
Who benefits by creating senseless confusion about JFK's assassination?

The real perps, perhaps?????
 
The faint, unreadable fingerprints would never have been allowed as evidence in any court of law.

Which has what baring on this discussion? Are we a court of law Robert? You keep trying to change our standard of evidence to somebody elses. No dice.

Oh, and if the finger prints aren't to your liking (well, there goes your Mac Wallace claim!) let's stick to the palm print. Though those on the shell casings were more than adequate to be admitted as evidence.
 
I assume you're trying to argue, in a tortured sort of way, that you have no responsibility to establish Wilson as an expert because his rendered opinion, as "testimonial" evidence, supposedly requires no "additional fact." Since you didn't relate this quote to any argument you made, we have to guess what you mean.

Nice try, but no.

The most "basic" evidence does not mean the witness does not require qualification. The qualification for a lay witness is simply that the witness has seen, heard, or otherwise experienced with his senses the phenomena that form that facts of the case. No special skill is required to testify to one's sensations, but the witness is limited to that testimony and may not offer opinions. The premise of the lay witness (as opposed to the expert witness) is that the witness and the trier of fact (i.e., the judge or a juror) are presumed to have the same knowledge and skill as respects the facts under testimony.

Your layman's summary fails to discuss the other kind of testimonial evidence -- expert testimony. It mentions it once, but then fails to describe or define it. Expert testimony is required when the determination of a fact at trial requires knowledge and skill not ordinarily possessed by the trier of fact. This is the kind of testimony you purport Wilson to be offering.

Not everyone possesses the skill to identify the fine composition of materials accurately from photographs, and not everyone is familiar with the sciences that would govern any attempt to do so. This is why you say we must pay special attention to Wilson, who does claim to have that knowledge.

You really should have read the whole document. There's a whole section on hearsay. It specifically says what you did it was wrong when you claimed Wilson was an expert but then pawned off responsibility for it on other people and on the distributor of a book on Wilson's claims.

Finally, go read Article VII of the U.S. Federal Rules of Evidence, which discusses expert testimony. Please pay special attention to Rule 702, which gives some of the criteria that expert testimony is required to satisfy, and Rule 705, which sets forth the conditions under which the expert may be compelled to validate his method. Your brief summary says testimonial evidence does not "usually" require additional supporting evidence. The underlying facts for an expert opinion are one exception. The initial voir dire establishing that the expert meets the criteria of an expert is another.

There is a great deal of case law on this rule, but I assume since you don't like looking up court cases that you are unfamiliar with it. One particular case discusses at length how one who is not a "traditionally qualified" expert should have his expertise tested. Since you require me to scour the federal record looking for Wilson's alleged expert testimony, I'll leave you to scour the federal record in search of this case, whose decision bears directly on whether Wilson would be considered an expert in federal court.

I was kind of hoping you'd drift into legal definitions of expertise, experts, and the burdens of proof that accompany expert testimony in a legal setting. Those rules are far more stringent than we've previously been using. Can you show that Wilson meets the criteria?

So in your "mind" Wilson would be proved to be an expert, how???
 
There were obviously at least two sets of autopsy photos taken, the real and the fake.

Yes. But the witness states the ones she remembered taking were AFTER reconstruction.

Think about that a while.
Q: Ms. Spencer, you have now had an opportunity to view all of the colored images, both transparencies and prints, that are in the possession of the National Archives related to the autopsy of President Kennedy. Based upon your knowledge, are there any images of the autopsy of President Kennedy that are not included in those views that we saw?
A: The views that we produced at the Photographic Center are not included.
Q: So you would think that the photographs that you developed were taken after reconstruction of the body?
A: Yes.

So the photos that are missing that you claim were destroyed because they were part of some conspiracy were made AFTER the body had been altered and reconstructed.

So the ones we have are made BEFORE the body was altered and reconstructed.


Let that sink in a second...

One made BEFORE the body was altered. One apparently AFTER.

So that would make your missing photos (destroyed because they support your witnesses!) the FAKE ones made AFTER reconstruction. After the "fake" morticians wax was applied to alter the wounds.



That makes the autopsy photos we have the genuine, unaltered, unreconstructed, accurate record.
 
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