JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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Nope those are claimants. You need to validate their claims with physical evidence or they are proved to be wrong by the photographs.

It was true on page 1, it's true now.

Summary of the Rules of Evidence
By Vincent Dicarlo of State of California Attorney General Medical Fraud Bureau

Testimonial evidence is the most basic form of evidence and the only kind that does not usually require another form of evidence as a prerequisite for its admissibility.


http://library.findlaw.com/2001/Jan/1/241488.html
 
Look, See method.

What method would i have used? To do what? You are the one making an assertion about the photograph, I am one of the people you are trying to convince. I don't have a method because i don't have anything to apply it to.

However,as you are the one making a claim it is entirely apt to compare YOUR methods to those used by professionals in the field. To ask what method you used. What variables you accounted for. When you list them there may be some, or many, that you did not accountforthat would alter the expected results of your "study".


But as you chose the "i am rubber you are glue" argument, I am afraid I now have suspicions why you will not discuss your method in any depth. But lets remain objective: what methodology did you use? What variables did you account for?
 
Summary of the Rules of Evidence
By Vincent Dicarlo of State of California Attorney General Medical Fraud Bureau

Testimonial evidence is the most basic form of evidence and the only kind that does not usually require another form of evidence as a prerequisite for its admissibility.


http://library.findlaw.com/2001/Jan/1/241488.html

Robert, this is not a court of law. The rules of evidence for a court are not what will convince me. That has no relevance here, just as the etiquette of this forum has no meaning in court. Even your own ettiquette of "baloney" and "one question or no answer" prove those rules are of no import.

But, just to be clear,you understand that doesn't prove you right if it DID apply? Thatpre-requisits for submission, and validation by other evidence in the court room itself arenot thesame thing?

LHO could have been called as a witness. He could claim not to have held the rifle, with no prerequisite. But the fingerprints taken from the rifle invalidate that claim.



You just shot yourself in the foot. Again.
 
Yeah, well when you mention those names, you know in advance just how full of it your comments are.

But just to keep the other Lone Nutters informed...

"Photographer Floyd Riebe, who took pictures of the body during the autopsy, said the photographs released by the government are phony and not the photographs we took...these films are doctored one way or another." --
Reuters dispatch by Jean King, May 29, 1992."

"We called the Navy photographer, John Stinger to testify. To our amazement he disowned the brain photographs in the Archives..."

-- Doug Horne, AARP interview with Dick Russell, in "On the Trail of the Assassins" page. 290.

"A sworn interview with Saundra Kay Spencer, who developed the JFK autopsy photos, in which she declared that the photos in the Archives are not the ones she developed. Autopsy photographer John Stringer similarly disavowed the supplemental autopsy brain photographs."

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/JFK_Assassination

LOL! And of course you forget that Reibe made a deposition to ARRB and stated in no uncertain terms the photos WERE real, and that Stringer also viewed the photos in 1966 and like Reibe stated and signed an affidavit that states the same thing.

So who you gonna believe Robert?

Shall we post dueling links?

Lets start with Spencer...great excerpt...

Q: Ms. Spencer, you have now had an opportunity to view all of the colored images, both transparencies and prints, that are in the possession of the National Archives related to the autopsy of President Kennedy. Based upon your knowledge, are there any images of the autopsy of President Kennedy that are not included in those views that we saw?
A: The views that we produced at the Photographic Center are not included.

Q: Ms. Spencer, how certain are you that there were other photographs of President Kennedy's autopsy that are not included in the set that you have just seen?
A: I could personally say that they are not included. The only thing I can determine is that because of the pristine condition of the body and the reverence that the body was shown, that—this is speculation on my part—that perhaps the family had the second set shot and developed as possible releases if autopsy pictures were demanded, because at that time, Mrs. Kennedy was attempting to keep all sensationalism out of the funeral and maintain the President's dignity and name.

Q: Are you able to—let's start with a conjecture as to whether the photographs that you developed, and the photographs that you observed today, could have been taken at different times?
A: I would definitely say they were taken at different times.

Q: Is there any question in your mind whether the photographs that you saw today were photographs of President Kennedy?
A: There is not doubt they are pictures of President Kennedy.

Q: Is there any doubt in your mind that the photographs that you saw in November 1963 also were of President Kennedy?
A: No, that was President Kennedy, but between those photographs and the ones that we did, there had to be some massive cosmetic things done to the President's body.

Q: Do you have an opinion as to whether the photographs that you developed in 1963 were taken before or after the photographs that you observed today?
A: I would say probably afterwards.

Q: So you would think that the photographs that you developed were taken after reconstruction of the body?
A: Yes.
 
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No. I only claim what Nigle Turner, Amazon.com and Lancer have claimed. Only the desperation of Lone Nutters in a panic would be concerned about such nonsense.
Rude Robert, making a claim and repeating somebody else's claim are two very different things. If you are making the same claim as Turner, Amazon and Lancer then you need to be able to support your claim, just like they do, if challenged. You have not done so. If, however, you are simply repeating their claim, because you blindly believe them, then you are fallaciously appealing to their purported authority. Either way you have failed miserably.

Sesame Street Geometry, 101

Now boys and girls, have a look at these two angles. Are they the same, or different???
They are different, just like the shadow angles in infocusinc's 'pencil' animation are. Do you really not understand and appreciate what infocusinc's animation is demonstrating, and how it invalidates the claim that the shadow angles in the b/y photos are anomalous? Again, you have failed miserably.

Fallacious appeal to authority. "Expert" is in the mind of the beholder.
Excuse me - you're alleging fallacious appeal to authority?! Very rich, Rude Robert, very rich. 'Expert' has various common usage meanings, depending on which dictionary one consults. Here's an appropriately representative one:

Expertdict

You'll note various operative words, such as 'special skill', 'special knowledge' and 'particular field'. These are prerequisites, Rude Robert. Without those attributes no amount of beholding in one's mind deems somebody an expert. Again, you have failed miserably.

Would proving Wilson to be an "expert" (whatever that means) mean that his findings are valid????
No. Experts can sometimes be wrong, especially when they dabble in areas to which their specialist skill and/or knowledge don't relate, which appears to be the case with Wilson, White, et al. Again, you have failed miserably.

Summary of the Rules of Evidence
By Vincent Dicarlo of State of California Attorney General Medical Fraud Bureau

Testimonial evidence is the most basic form of evidence and the only kind that does not usually require another form of evidence as a prerequisite for its admissibility.
Rude Robert, we've been over this before. Just because testimonial evidence does not usually require another form of evidence as a prerequisite for its admissibility does not render it reliable. You are conflating independence with reliability, which is a false premise. Again, you have failed miserably.

I'm no 'expert" in mathematics, but it is my firm belief that 2 plus 2 equals 4 and can prove it. Is that assertion "worthless"??????
No, but it does not require special skills or knowledge to calculate and prove it, hence it doesn't require expertise. It's elementary mathematics, Rude Robert. Whilst your elementary level maths seems passable, you have, again, failed miserably.

You're really not doing very well at all, are you, Rude Robert.

Next please ...
 
Summary of the Rules of Evidence
By Vincent Dicarlo of State of California Attorney General Medical Fraud Bureau

Testimonial evidence is the most basic form of evidence and the only kind that does not usually require another form of evidence as a prerequisite for its admissibility.


http://library.findlaw.com/2001/Jan/1/241488.html

Perfect! The hundreds of millions of witnesses to the large blowout on the right side of Kennedy's head win!

Oops! You did it again!



LOL.
 
The facts proving the autopsy photos are fake have not been refuted. Only in your dreams. Those who took and developed them have dis-owned them and the 40 plus medical witnesses who observed a large blow-out in the back of the head, refute them.

To quote Robert...BALONEY
 
Wilson offered the government the opportunity to replicate if they would only supply the needed documentation:

"In 1991, I visited the Archives and looked at some of the material. I asked for a request for authenticity on several things, and I will just go through a few articles here. On July 2nd, 1991, I wrote to the National Archives and Records Administration. After conferring with people there, and during my visit to the Archives in June, I viewed two three-quarter inch beta films that were the Zapruder, Nix and Muchmore films. During my viewing, I requested an established authenticity of where these films came from, where they were copied, who copied them, and the process in which they were copied...

Now I am going to bring hard scientific proof, chain of evidence photographs, data of everything I have done, all of the protocol that I have used which can be reproduced by any agency of the government anywhere, and I am going to bring that in the next few months. It is going to prove three things positively."

Testimony of Thomas Wilson

Dallas, Texas -- November 18, 1994 Hearing

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arrb/index68.htm

So where is ALL that stuff Wilson promised Robert?
 
Sesame Street Geometry, 101

Now boys and girls, have a look at these two angles. Are they the same, or different???


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=808&pictureid=5834[/qimg]


Well that is rather childish of you I do admit. Too bad your attempt to measure the 3d aspects of a scene rendered in 2d fails ... miserably.

And of course given that the body of Oswald moved in relation to the sun from one photo to the next, the movement of the shadow is ALSO expected.

That would be real world photography 101 Robert. You failed.
 
The evidence is in the 40 plus on the scene witnesses who observed a large blow-out in the back of K's head, and all of the photographers and developers who have disowned the autopsy photos in the archives.

One would think that since you've claimed this so often that you would have listed all 40+ witnesses and supplied at least one unaltered quote taken in context from each of them to show that they really do claim to have seen what you say they claim to have seen. But that's OK Robert, we know why you haven't done that.



(Since you often seem to have trouble reading all of the words of a post, I've taken the liberty of putting in bold the words in this post that you are likely to skip and which would change the entire meaning of my post).
 
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One would think that since you've claimed this so often that you would have listed all 40+ witnesses and supplied at least one unaltered quote taken in context from each of them to show that they really do claim to have seen what you say they claim to have seen. But that's OK Robert, we know why you haven't done that.



(Since you often seem to have trouble reading all of the words of a post, I've taken the liberty of putting in bold the words in this post that you are likely to skip and which would change the entire meaning of my post).

Seconded. I started looking into some of those 40+ and it wasn't too long before I started seeing conflicting accounts, changing testimony and testimony taken long after the fact. Time to come clean and prove the validity of your 40+, showing ALL of their testimony and when it was taken.
 
I'm no 'expert" in mathematics, but it is my firm belief that 2 plus 2 equals 4 and can prove it. Is that assertion "worthless"??????

Attesting to commonly known matters of fact are not at all equivalent to claiming that there exists a machine that can detect the composition of materials reliably from photographs, detect the trajectory of bullets from photographs taken later of the wounds they inflicted, prescribe eyeglasses for a man given only an indistinct photo of him, etc.
 
Cop-out. Try answering the question.

I already answered what I proposed to do with evidence of Wilson's expertise, were it ever to be provided. Please stop trying to get a different answer. Deal with what I said, and stop trying to say you don't have a responsibility to provide it because you've prejudicially decided how it would be received.
 
Testimonial evidence is the most basic form of evidence and the only kind that does not usually require another form of evidence as a prerequisite for its admissibility.

I assume you're trying to argue, in a tortured sort of way, that you have no responsibility to establish Wilson as an expert because his rendered opinion, as "testimonial" evidence, supposedly requires no "additional fact." Since you didn't relate this quote to any argument you made, we have to guess what you mean.

Nice try, but no.

The most "basic" evidence does not mean the witness does not require qualification. The qualification for a lay witness is simply that the witness has seen, heard, or otherwise experienced with his senses the phenomena that form that facts of the case. No special skill is required to testify to one's sensations, but the witness is limited to that testimony and may not offer opinions. The premise of the lay witness (as opposed to the expert witness) is that the witness and the trier of fact (i.e., the judge or a juror) are presumed to have the same knowledge and skill as respects the facts under testimony.

Your layman's summary fails to discuss the other kind of testimonial evidence -- expert testimony. It mentions it once, but then fails to describe or define it. Expert testimony is required when the determination of a fact at trial requires knowledge and skill not ordinarily possessed by the trier of fact. This is the kind of testimony you purport Wilson to be offering.

Not everyone possesses the skill to identify the fine composition of materials accurately from photographs, and not everyone is familiar with the sciences that would govern any attempt to do so. This is why you say we must pay special attention to Wilson, who does claim to have that knowledge.

You really should have read the whole document. There's a whole section on hearsay. It specifically says what you did it was wrong when you claimed Wilson was an expert but then pawned off responsibility for it on other people and on the distributor of a book on Wilson's claims.

Finally, go read Article VII of the U.S. Federal Rules of Evidence, which discusses expert testimony. Please pay special attention to Rule 702, which gives some of the criteria that expert testimony is required to satisfy, and Rule 705, which sets forth the conditions under which the expert may be compelled to validate his method. Your brief summary says testimonial evidence does not "usually" require additional supporting evidence. The underlying facts for an expert opinion are one exception. The initial voir dire establishing that the expert meets the criteria of an expert is another.

There is a great deal of case law on this rule, but I assume since you don't like looking up court cases that you are unfamiliar with it. One particular case discusses at length how one who is not a "traditionally qualified" expert should have his expertise tested. Since you require me to scour the federal record looking for Wilson's alleged expert testimony, I'll leave you to scour the federal record in search of this case, whose decision bears directly on whether Wilson would be considered an expert in federal court.

I was kind of hoping you'd drift into legal definitions of expertise, experts, and the burdens of proof that accompany expert testimony in a legal setting. Those rules are far more stringent than we've previously been using. Can you show that Wilson meets the criteria?
 
Wilson offered the government the opportunity to replicate if they would only supply the needed documentation:

There's nothing whatsoever in there about the scientific reproducibility of Wilson's methods. He's just babbling about custody of evidence and access to faithful copies of the photographs for his own purposes. Kindly don't try to turn every question asked of you into an ideological diatribe.

In order for a scientific method or process to be used forensically to yield valid results that qualify as evidence, the process must be described in sufficient detail so as to be comprehensible and acceptable to the relevant body of experts (and ideally, also practicable by them). And it has to be tested first in matters that aren't connected with the facts in dispute (and ideally, by other practitioners). Where was this done for Wilson's method?

You really don't understand at all the concepts of reproducibility and replication in science.

I notice that Wilson claims to have analyzed the backyard photos, whereas you previously stated that he had not, and you have not yet corrected that misconception. Are you sure you're a reliable reporter of Wilson's claims?
 
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