Alternate History

[TimCallahan]

Let's not forget Lest Darkness Fall by L. Sprague DeCamp (1939), perhaps the grand-daddy of all alternate history SF novels.

 

[Ashles]

Making history by Stephen fry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_History_(novel)
a professor invents limited capability time travel, and drops a male contraceptive pill into a well that Hitlers father drinks from

without a maniac in charge the third Reich is worse than ever, it has its funny moments too, like when the Nazi's nuke Moscow in 1938, I'm still trying to work out why that was funny though, Stephen Fry, comedy genius

Seconded. Great book.
(I also enjoyed Fatherland.)

 

[catsmate]

Let's not forget Lest Darkness Fall by L. Sprague DeCamp (1939), perhaps the grand-daddy of all alternate history SF novels.

Not by about two millennia.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I meant to mention that the interwar trilogy seemed far longer than it needed to be; it could probably have been covered in one book.

As for recycling the Third Reich, I agree with that up to a point, but other than the glaringly obvious one I'd be hard-pressed to name any Confederates who were analogues to actual Nazis (as opposed to filling the same positions in the government). My best friend and I both read the series as each book came out, and well before the start of World War II we correctly predicted a lot of what was going to happen.

It was pretty obvious, in some cases...
Featherson=Hitler
Goldman=Goebbels
Willy Knight=Ernst Rohm
Irving Morell=mix of Guderian and Rommel
Anthony Dresser=Anton Drexler
Terry DeFrancis=Curtis LeMay
Koenig=Himmler & Goering
Jefferson Pinkard=Rudolf Hoss
Clarence Potter=Wilhelm Canaris

 

[Lamuella]

Not by about two millennia.

is there an alternative universe where that link works?

 

[SpitfireIX]

It was pretty obvious, in some cases...
Featherson=Hitler

Featherstone is, of course, the one I meant by "glaringly obvious."

Goldman=Goebbels

Goldman fills the role of Goebbels, to a certain extent; I don't see the two as having similar personalities or backgrounds. Goebbels had no experience in radio, and there is no evidence that Goldman is motivated by ideology; rather only by a desire to see someone other than the Jews scapegoated. I suspect that the similarity in names is yet another of HT's "inside" jokes.

Willy Knight=Ernst Rohm

The only similarity is that The Leader had each of them killed.

Irving Morell=mix of Guderian and Rommel

Erm, Morrell fought for the North.

Anthony Dresser=Anton Drexler

For those unfamiliar, Anton Drexler founded the Nazi Party, but had no real power or involvement after Hitler took control in 1921, and did not participate in the Beer Hall Putsch. In the books the Freedom Party is founded by "Anthony Dresser." This is clearly another one of HT's jokes.

Terry DeFrancis=Curtis LeMay

Questionable similarity, but in any case TD fought for the North and CL was not a Nazi. I admit, however, that I didn't pick up on the capital-small-capital similarity in the beginning of the names.

Koenig=Himmler & Goering

Fills some similar roles, but not really developed well enough to say he's equivalent to either, or to a combination of them.

Jefferson Pinkard=Rudolf Hoss

Again, fills the role, but has a dissimilar personality and background.

Clarence Potter=Wilhelm Canaris

I initially thought he was going to end up as Canaris, but then

he declined to participate in Forrest's coup attempt.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

Like the original Blackadder.

Not at all. Blackadder was about what "really" happened to Richard the III, and also what would happen if one of Richard's nephews became king after him, in stead of Henry the VII.

 

[catsmate]

is there an alternative universe where that link works?

You need to shift 0.0112 Quanta on the peppermint axis. Try this one.

Livy (Titus Livius). Ab urbe condita
Divergence: 323 BCE
What if: Alexander the Great lived longer and turned west to attack the Romans.
Summary: A digression in book IX, sections 17-19, of this history of Rome patriotically suggests that the Romans would have beaten him.
Comments: The oldest alternate history? As one of the earlier parts of Livy's history, this digression was likely written around 35 to 30 BCE.

 

[catsmate]

Featherstone is, of course, the one I meant by "glaringly obvious."

But Featherstone's personality doesn't really match up with Hitler. He's harder working and less prone to meddling than Hitler, though there's the genocide business.

Goldman fills the role of Goebbels, to a certain extent; I don't see the two as having similar personalities or backgrounds. Goebbels had no experience in radio, and there is no evidence that Goldman is motivated by ideology; rather only by a desire to see someone other than the Jews scapegoated. I suspect that the similarity in names is yet another of HT's "inside" jokes.

He also doesn't seem to match with what's written about Goebbels' personality.

Erm, Morrell fought for the North.

Morrell is more of a Zhukov, if you keep to the strict USA=Soviet Union parallel. Though less willing to spend his troops lives, no Stalin to answer to.

For those unfamiliar, Anton Drexler founded the Nazi Party, but had no real power or involvement after Hitler took control in 1921, and did not participate in the Beer Hall Putsch. In the books the Freedom Party is founded by "Anthony Dresser." This is clearly another one of HT's jokes.

I'd forgotten about Dresser/Drexler. I laughed when I first read that scene.

Again, fills the role, but has a dissimilar personality and background.

Hess? Pinkard seemed more of a Heydrich, but even that's a stretch.
He seemed to me to be more of the Everyman character.

I initially thought he was going to end up as Canaris,

He also seemed more hands-on than Canaris

Parallelism in Southern Victory.

 

[SpitfireIX]

But Featherstone's personality doesn't really match up with Hitler. He's harder working and less prone to meddling than Hitler, though there's the genocide business.

Some aspects do, though Featherstone is also less of a megalomaniac. And the genocide is the most important match, IMO.

Morrell is more of a Zhukov, if you keep to the strict USA=Soviet Union parallel. Though less willing to spend his troops lives, no Stalin to answer to.

Good points.

I'd forgotten about Dresser/Drexler. I laughed when I first read that scene.

I groaned.

Hess? Pinkard seemed more of a Heydrich, but even that's a stretch.
He seemed to me to be more of the Everyman character.

No, Jarlaxle meant Rudolf Höss^WP, the first commandant of Auschwitz.

 

[angrysoba]

I haven't read much alternate history, but one I can recommend is Philip Roth's The Plot Against America. In it, Charles Lindbergh is elected President of the USA, and interesting things happen. The only problem is a rather silly denouement, but the book up until that point is quite good.

Ah, yes! I have read that one too. Or at least, most of it.

I remember wondering if it was somehow a nudge-nudge wink-wink reference to the post-9/11 Bush administration, but I think Roth insisted it wasn't. Probably just as well.

For some reason I never finished the book as I thought that much of the alternative Roth family life was a bit boring. The scenes set on the national stage were much more interesting with Lindberg and Walter Winchell.

ETA: Also worth reading is Philip K. Dick's Man in the High Castle, in which the Germans and the Japanese win World War II and the US is divided into German-occupied, Japanese-occupied and a kind of free buffer state in the middle. There's some sci-fi elements to it where one of the Japanese occupation authorities somehow ends up in Our World and gets told to leave a diner (I seem to recall).

 

[hgc]

Ah, yes! I have read that one too. Or at least, most of it.

I remember wondering if it was somehow a nudge-nudge wink-wink reference to the post-9/11 Bush administration, but I think Roth insisted it wasn't. Probably just as well.

For some reason I never finished the book as I thought that much of the alternative Roth family life was a bit boring. The scenes set on the national stage were much more interesting with Lindberg and Walter Winchell.

I don't see anything in there that has to do with Bush, etc. The theme of a society focused on the threat to their civilization by the impure elements within is universal and timeless.

It's OK you didn't finish the book. Roth goes overboard in laying out backstory to the events that preceded, and thus turns the whole thing from plausible to far-fetched.

ETA: Also worth reading is Philip K. Dick's Man in the High Castle, in which the Germans and the Japanese win World War II and the US is divided into German-occupied, Japanese-occupied and a kind of free buffer state in the middle. There's some sci-fi elements to it where one of the Japanese occupation authorities somehow ends up in Our World and gets told to leave a diner (I seem to recall).

I'll give it a try.

 

[catsmate]

Some aspects do, though Featherstone is also less of a megalomaniac. And the genocide is the most important match, IMO.

Agreed.

, Jarlaxle meant Rudolf Höss^WP, the first commandant of Auschwitz.

Ahh, that makes more sense. And is a better match.

 

[catsmate]

I don't see anything in there that has to do with Bush, etc. The theme of a society focused on the threat to their civilization by the impure elements within is universal and timeless.

It's OK you didn't finish the book. Roth goes overboard in laying out backstory to the events that preceded, and thus turns the whole thing from plausible to far-fetched.

Have you tried K is for Killing by Daniel Easterman? Similar premise, Fascist USA after a Lindburgh presidency, complete with extermination camps.

 

[TimCallahan]

Not by about two millennia.

okay, now that you gave a link that works, I see what you mean. However, in all seriousness, Lest Darkness Fall seems to be about the earliest alternate history sf novel I can think of.

 

[catsmate]

okay, now that you gave a link that works, I see what you mean. However, in all seriousness, Lest Darkness Fall seems to be about the earliest alternate history sf novel I can think of.

Yes there were relatively few before then, some collections of speculative essays like If It Had Happened Otherwise and The Ifs of History and some rarities like Disraeli's The Wondrous Tale of Alroy and McManus's The Professor in Erin.

 

[TimCallahan]

Like A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, Lest Darkness Fall featured a guy from the future who was able, with his superior knowledge, to overwhelm the primitive opposition. A refreshingly different view of this scenario, although it wasn't an alternate history, was Poul Anderson's short story, "The Man Who Came Early."

 

[catsmate]

Like A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, Lest Darkness Fall featured a guy from the future who was able, with his superior knowledge, to overwhelm the primitive opposition. A refreshingly different view of this scenario, although it wasn't an alternate history, was Poul Anderson's short story, "The Man Who Came Early."

There's a sub-genre within AH based on this trope, Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen (now on it's fifty book) is one of the best known examples.
Of course today's writers tend to drop larger groups into other worlds to stur things up, small towns into the Thirty Years War or entire islands into the bronze age.

 

[hgc]

Jasper Fforde's "Thursday Next" series, which is literary sci-fi/fantasy, has a healthy dose of alternative history too. It's set in present day England, which was, until not too many years ago, occupied by the Germans (since WWII). Thursday Next was a soldier (ambulance attendant) in the army in the Crimean War, which seems to have occurred mid-20th century. She's a hero of the charge of the light brigade.

 

[fleabeetle]

Have just noticed this thread; can't resist adding my 2 British pence.

I reread his Worldwar and Colonization series last autumn...
- Turtledove points out that this is irony (whether or not it is);
- In case it wasn't obvious, Turtledove points out, again, how the preceding section was all humour (whether or not it was).

This gets very tedious after a few books...

For me, Turtledove's biggest flaw is that he is forever flogging things to death -- hauling them out and beating the reader over the head with them -- reiterating A, B and C, or telling you of them, over and over and over again.

I did like the Worldwar and Colonization series -- thought them among his most original stuff. I could wish that he'd written lots more in the series, instead of the IMO in comparison somewhat feeble "Southern Victory" cycle.

Turtledove, IMO, basically writes too much; I find that his output varies from brilliant, to beyond dire. Among his works which I've enjoyed the most, has been some of that material of his, which is not strictly alternative history.

I went off Steve after he started the seemingly endless Emberverse series.
Conquistador and the Island in the Sea of Time series I did like.

Me too -- for me, add "Peshawar Lancers" to those greatly liked. The Emberverse series didn't sit altogether well with me, from the outset; and when it got progressively more "magical / mystical / mythological", that was the killer for me. I abandoned the Emberverse after book 5. And now (different, new series) he's got into vampires -- heaven help us, as far as I'm concerned.

The idea reminds me of Turtledove's A World Of Difference with its inhabited Mars analogue (Minerva) and competing US/Soviet missions.

I reckoned Stirling's venus / Mars pair quite fun, though not to absolutely rave over. Had a bit of a problem at first, in finding his Cajun hero in the Venus book, cocky and detestable; but over time, have got sort of reconciled to the guy.