Alternate History

[catsmate]

Have just noticed this thread; can't resist adding my 2 British pence.

Welcome.

For me, Turtledove's biggest flaw is that he is forever flogging things to death -- hauling them out and beating the reader over the head with them -- reiterating A, B and C, or telling you of them, over and over and over again.

Yep, he's a little unsubtle and repetitive, plus he tends to reuse ideas, characters and situations between books

Turtledove, IMO, basically writes too much; I find that his output varies from brilliant, to beyond dire. Among his works which I've enjoyed the most, has been some of that material of his, which is not strictly alternative history.

Good point, he really does churn out some dire stuff. Some of his short stories (like The Road Not Taken) are great but his longer works seem very variable. I haven't tried his Supervolcano books yet.

Me too -- for me, add "Peshawar Lancers" to those greatly liked. The Emberverse series didn't sit altogether well with me, from the outset; and when it got progressively more "magical / mystical / mythological", that was the killer for me. I abandoned the Emberverse after book 5. And now (different, new series) he's got into vampires -- heaven help us, as far as I'm concerned.

I liked The Peshwar Lancers, though the background/PoD seems very forced, just so Stirling could write his British Indian steampunk adventure.
There's a long thread on AH.com with a cooperative and more likely post-impact history. I couldn't take the Emberverse much.
And even David Weber is doing vampire/SF crossover............

http://kingofthenerds.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/review-out-of-the-dark-by-david-weber/I

I reckoned Stirling's venus / Mars pair quite fun, though not to absolutely rave over. Had a bit of a problem at first, in finding his Cajun hero in the Venus book, cocky and detestable; but over time, have got sort of reconciled to the guy.

I must give it a try.

 

[fleabeetle]

Welcome.

Thanks !

Good point, he really does churn out some dire stuff. Some of his short stories (like The Road Not Taken) are great but his longer works seem very variable. I haven't tried his Supervolcano books yet.

I much enjoyed (among his not-actually-alternative-history material) the "Videssos" (Byzantium-with-a-considerable-twist), and "Darkness", series. I seem to be, among Turtledove fans, one of the very few devotees of the latter; most of them rate it as dreadful. ("Turn about", I loathe his stand-alone "Toxic Spell Dump", which most aficionados seem to rave over.) By all rational criteria, "Darkness" seems a beyond-lame idea -- re-telling of course of a simplified World War II, with different countries, in a quasi-medieval universe whose warlike, and peaceful, technology relies on trained giant beasts, and magic, not on "the mechanic arts": but, goodness knows why, I found it captivating.

Nonetheless, as of a couple of years ago, I renounced anything more by HT related to World War II or putative aftermaths thereof -- just, for me, complete overload and overkill. Something else of his which I've liked, is the "Crosstime Traffic" series (not "alt. hist.", but "future-might-be") even though it's "young adult" -- wish he'd write some more.


(QUOTING MECHANISM REFUSES TO WORK): catsmate1 writes:
"I liked The Peshwar Lancers, though the background/PoD seems very forced, just so Stirling could write his British Indian steampunk adventure.
There's a long thread on AH.com with a cooperative and more likely post-impact history."


I was happy enough with the PL background/PoD -- I tend toward approach of "allow the author one major start-ball-rolling event, however improbable -- further improbabilities, is cheating". Just loved the "British Indian steampunk" scenario. A rather similar milieu, to that of the Turtledove / Richard Dreyfuss single novel, "The Two Georges" -- re which I gagged on the storyline and the general political / social "take", but revelled in the "scene and setting".

 

[catsmate]

Thanks !

I much enjoyed (among his not-actually-alternative-history material) the "Videssos" (Byzantium-with-a-considerable-twist),

Ah yes, what to do with a degree in Byzantine history; write about it!

and "Darkness", series. I seem to be, among Turtledove fans, one of the very few devotees of the latter; most of them rate it as dreadful. ("Turn about", I loathe his stand-alone "Toxic Spell Dump", which most aficionados seem to rave over.) By all rational criteria, "Darkness" seems a beyond-lame idea -- re-telling of course of a simplified World War II, with different countries, in a quasi-medieval universe whose warlike, and peaceful, technology relies on trained giant beasts, and magic, not on "the mechanic arts": but, goodness knows why, I found it captivating.

Meh, I never finished the series. Though I liked his 'War between the Provinces' retelling of the US Civil War. It was shorter than the 'Darkness' series though.

Nonetheless, as of a couple of years ago, I renounced anything more by HT related to World War II or putative aftermaths thereof -- just, for me, complete overload and overkill. Something else of his which I've liked, is the "Crosstime Traffic" series (not "alt. hist.", but "future-might-be") even though it's "young adult" -- wish he'd write some more.

Yes I liked that series (reminded me of the GURPS Infinite Worlds setting) though the "heroes" were often annoying.

I was happy enough with the PL background/PoD -- I tend toward approach of "allow the author one major start-ball-rolling event, however improbable -- further improbabilities, is cheating". Just loved the "British Indian steampunk" scenario. A rather similar milieu, to that of the Turtledove / Richard Dreyfuss single novel, "The Two Georges" -- re which I gagged on the storyline and the general political / social "take", but revelled in the "scene and setting".

Yeah 'The Two Georges' wasn't great, poor AH, mediocre plot and terrible characterisation ('Tricky Dicky').

The main problem people on AH has with The Peshwar Lancers was the effects of the impacts, the unlikeness of the consequences describes; but as you say it's just the background for the storytelling.
Not as bad as his Draka althist.

 

[fleabeetle]

Meh, I never finished the series. Though I liked his 'War between the Provinces' retelling of the US Civil War. It was shorter than the 'Darkness' series though.

So many different opinions re the works of our boy Harry. (There's a "Yahoo" list devoted to discussion of his stuff -- unfortunately, it is ongoingly torpid / moribund.) For me -- loved "Darkness", but thought the "War between the Provinces" books, beyond awful -- struggled though the first one-and-a-half of them, then, "finito". In part, it was for me his, IMO dreadful, sometimes puns-addiction, which he indulges to the max in "WbtP" -- when Harry gets pun-happy, I head for the hills !

Yes I liked that series (reminded me of the GURPS Infinite Worlds setting) though the "heroes" were often annoying.

"Disunited States" got up my nose a little bit -- perceived recycling of some of the less inspired parts of "Southern Victory" -- otherwise mostly delighted-in.

Not as bad as his Draka althist.

I got on to the "Draka" books rather late; and to my great surprise -- re the extreme gruesomeness I'd been led to expect of them -- I found them rather boring. Got through the first two; bought the third, but have yet to open it. De gustibus, and all that...

 

[luchog]

Worst I've ever read is unquestionably Harry Harrison's Stars and Stripes Forever.

Interesting that his writing would be so bad there; because I really liked The Hammer and the Cross. Although that one was written in collaboration with Tom Shippey, which probably made a huge difference.

 

[RationalVetMed]

I love this sub-genre too. My personal favourites already mentioned - 'Fatherland' is absolutely brilliant (although the film left a lot to be desired ) and Dick's 'The Man in the High Castle' - does the author really tell the characters at the end that they're in a work of fiction???

One that hasn't been mentioned but is wonderful and very much in a similar vein to 'Fatherland' is 'SS GB' by Len Deighton about an English police detective working in Nazi occupied Britain in the 40's - gritty, realisitic with loads of little details of day to day life.

Another one I love which I'm pretty certain no one will have heard of is 'I James Blunt', the only work of fiction written by travel writer HV Morton. I love all this author's works and this short story, commissioned by the ministry of propaganda, of life in Nazi occupied Britain is great, all the more so because it was written during WWII when the outcome was far from certain.

Yuri

 

[catsmate]

So many different opinions re the works of our boy Harry. (There's a "Yahoo" list devoted to discussion of his stuff -- unfortunately, it is ongoingly torpid / moribund.) For me -- loved "Darkness", but thought the "War between the Provinces" books, beyond awful -- struggled though the first one-and-a-half of them, then, "finito". In part, it was for me his, IMO dreadful, sometimes puns-addiction, which he indulges to the max in "WbtP" -- when Harry gets pun-happy, I head for the hills !

The punning is just plain annoying, luckily he seems to have it under control most of the time.

"Disunited States" got up my nose a little bit -- perceived recycling of some of the less inspired parts of "Southern Victory" -- otherwise mostly delighted-in.

Yeah, plus it could have done with more background on the balkanised America.

I got on to the "Draka" books rather late; and to my great surprise -- re the extreme gruesomeness I'd been led to expect of them -- I found them rather boring. Got through the first two; bought the third, but have yet to open it. De gustibus, and all that...

The third book is rather different, purer SF with the expansion into space from ~1950 to 1999. It's even less plausible IMO than the Draka themselves.

Interesting that his writing would be so bad there; because I really liked The Hammer and the Cross. Although that one was written in collaboration with Tom Shippey, which probably made a huge difference.

I wonder what the ratio of input was......
Anyway IMO SSIP is pure pulp; not to be taken seriously.

I love this sub-genre too. My personal favourites already mentioned - 'Fatherland' is absolutely brilliant (although the film left a lot to be desired ) and Dick's 'The Man in the High Castle' - does the author really tell the characters at the end that they're in a work of fiction???

Not a fan of Dick, I think the book over-rated.

One that hasn't been mentioned but is wonderful and very much in a similar vein to 'Fatherland' is 'SS GB' by Len Deighton about an English police detective working in Nazi occupied Britain in the 40's - gritty, realisitic with loads of little details of day to day life.

Another one I love which I'm pretty certain no one will have heard of is 'I James Blunt', the only work of fiction written by travel writer HV Morton. I love all this author's works and this short story, commissioned by the ministry of propaganda, of life in Nazi occupied Britain is great, all the more so because it was written during WWII when the outcome was far from certain.

SS-GB is a rather underestimated book, Deighton applies his usual level of detail to the story. I'm not sure about the background though, however he captures the atmosphere around the German nuclear programme well.
And actually I have a copy of 'I, James Blunt'

 

[RationalVetMed]

... actually I have a copy of 'I, James Blunt'

Wow - mega-respect . Was that because you like alternate history books or HV Morton?

Yuri

 

[catsmate]

Wow - mega-respect . Was that because you like alternate history books or HV Morton?

Yuri

Oh althist, I'm pretty sure it's the only book I have by Morton.
I did mention it was a bit of an obsession........

 

[fleabeetle]

Re "Disunited States":

Yeah, plus it could have done with more background on the balkanised America.

The six "Crosstime Traffic" books so far, have all been about different "alternates". Nonetheless, Turtledove is certainly not shy about "recycling / rejigging / retreading" when he sees it as expedient. I have no difficulty seeing him returning to the "balkanised America" (other parts of) of the "DS" alternate, in a situation of his needing a quick little earner, not requiring too-arduous exercising of the imagination.

 

[fishbob]

Howard Waldrop has a number of short stories along these lines:

Custer's Last Jump
The Ugly Chickens
Mary Margaret Road Grader
Night of the Cooters

and probably more.

 

[SpitfireIX]

The punning is just plain annoying, luckily he seems to have it under control most of the time.

I've only read Worldwar (not Colonization), Southern Victory, Pearl Harbor, and The Guns of the South, but from this limited sample his puns seem to have gotten worse over time.

 

[dudalb]

You can't have a real Alternate History dicussion without mentioning Alan Moore's "The Watchmen".

 

[fleabeetle]

The punning is just plain annoying, luckily he seems to have it under control most of the time.

I've only read Worldwar (not Colonization), Southern Victory, Pearl Harbor, and The Guns of the South, but from this limited sample his puns seem to have gotten worse over time.

Turtledove's worst for me for that annoyance, was The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump. Nothing but bleeding puns, and laboured "sorcerous" parallels with things in "our world". I got two-thirds of the way through, then it became unbearable; I just shut the book, and "end-of".

 

[BaaBaa]

OK, how about really bad AH's, the ones that make you cringe. Where the whole idea is just to allow the author to pontificate, usually about the One True Way (economic/political/social) and why everything would be perfect if only the USA embraced Libertarianism or dog fighting was encouraged.

"The year is 1891 and the British Empire is balanced on a precipice. If the last English Bulldog dies, the empire will begin to crumble and the Boer War will be fought as a Vietnam type quagmire. But if imperial soldiers ride across the African plain with huge packs of fierce Bulldogs at their side, then British martial prowess will be magnified. Armed with this knowledge, David Banner unleashes a lethal combination of war dogs, machineguns, and chemical artillery shells into the killing fields of South Africa. Under this onslaught, history takes a dramatic and violent turn. Through force of arms, he will either extend the Pax Britannica for a thousand years or the world will sink into centuries of meaningless war and destruction."

That sounds absolutely abysmal.

 

[BaaBaa]

Howard Waldrop has a number of short stories along these lines:

Custer's Last Jump
The Ugly Chickens
Mary Margaret Road Grader
Night of the Cooters

and probably more.

IIRC, he wrote "Ike At The Mike", in which Eisenhower hears somebody play "Struttin' With Some Barbecue" on his way to military school(? It's been easily 25 years since I read it...) and decides to play jazz.

Senator Elvis Presley listens to his greatest record, recorded at Carnegie Hall , "Ike At The Mike". The British ambassador, William Pratt, makes an appearance, as well.

ETA: Also, "The Ugly Chickens" has one of the best closing lines I ever read in a short story....

 

[fleabeetle]

OK, how about really bad AH's ... why everything would be perfect if only...dog fighting was encouraged[/URL].

"The year is 1891 and the British Empire is balanced on a precipice. If the last English Bulldog dies, the empire will begin to crumble and the Boer War will be fought as a Vietnam type quagmire. But if imperial soldiers ride across the African plain with huge packs of fierce Bulldogs at their side, then British martial prowess will be magnified. Armed with this knowledge, David Banner unleashes a lethal combination of war dogs, machineguns, and chemical artillery shells into the killing fields of South Africa. Under this onslaught, history takes a dramatic and violent turn. Through force of arms, he will either extend the Pax Britannica for a thousand years or the world will sink into centuries of meaningless war and destruction."

That sounds absolutely abysmal.

Awful AH premises from awful authors, aside -- the above unavoidably brought to mind the "General / Raj Whitehall" series, written in collaboration by S. M. Stirling and David Drake; basically appeared in the 1990s. Would seem at first sight, a most weird mish-mash of sources / themes: steampunk-type stuff, set on a settled-from-Earth planet at some indeterminate time in the future -- wars and manoeuvrings between very different cultures on that planet, on which past nuclear wars / genetic modifying, have opened the road to much strange mutational stuff. And the planet's geography is recognisably modelled, though "with a twist", on that of Europe / Middle East / Africa; and much about the planet's wars / invasions / migrations / religious background thereto, is "cloned" from history of "our time-line" 's first millennium AD.

And -- the "war-dogs" reference: warfare on the planet in which this series is set, is largely of the cavalry kind; only instead of horses, the cavalry here use various breeds of dog, genetically altered to be large enough for humans to ride.

I suspect that this stuff, described "from cold", must sound like utter drivel; but it's well-written, and IMO rather engaging. I definitely took to the series -- first few books in it, at any rate (ran to seven or eight volumes IIRC). After the first few, I ran out of steam a bit; but plan in the fullness of time, to re-read, and go further with the series.

 

[catsmate]

I've only read Worldwar (not Colonization), Southern Victory, Pearl Harbor, and The Guns of the South, but from this limited sample his puns seem to have gotten worse over time.

You might want to avoid Piers Anthony if you don't like puns.

You can't have a real Alternate History dicussion without mentioning Alan Moore's "The Watchmen".

True, I'd forgotten that one.

Turtledove's worst for me for that annoyance, was The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump. Nothing but bleeding puns, and laboured "sorcerous" parallels with things in "our world". I got two-thirds of the way through, then it became unbearable; I just shut the book, and "end-of".

I couldn't finish it either.

"The year is 1891 and the British Empire is balanced on a precipice. If the last English Bulldog dies, the empire will begin to crumble and the Boer War will be fought as a Vietnam type quagmire. But if imperial soldiers ride across the African plain with huge packs of fierce Bulldogs at their side, then British martial prowess will be magnified. Armed with this knowledge, David Banner unleashes a lethal combination of war dogs, machineguns, and chemical artillery shells into the killing fields of South Africa. Under this onslaught, history takes a dramatic and violent turn. Through force of arms, he will either extend the Pax Britannica for a thousand years or the world will sink into centuries of meaningless war and destruction."

That sounds absolutely abysmal.

It is. It's worse than Stars And Stripes In Peril by far. I'm not sure exactly what the author's point was. And the mystical bits were even worse than the dog fights.

Awful AH premises from awful authors, aside -- the above unavoidably brought to mind the "General / Raj Whitehall" series, written in collaboration by S. M. Stirling and David Drake; basically appeared in the 1990s. Would seem at first sight, a most weird mish-mash of sources / themes: steampunk-type stuff, set on a settled-from-Earth planet at some indeterminate time in the future -- wars and manoeuvrings between very different cultures on that planet, on which past nuclear wars / genetic modifying, have opened the road to much strange mutational stuff. And the planet's geography is recognisably modelled, though "with a twist", on that of Europe / Middle East / Africa; and much about the planet's wars / invasions / migrations / religious background thereto, is "cloned" from history of "our time-line" 's first millennium AD.

And -- the "war-dogs" reference: warfare on the planet in which this series is set, is largely of the cavalry kind; only instead of horses, the cavalry here use various breeds of dog, genetically altered to be large enough for humans to ride.

I suspect that this stuff, described "from cold", must sound like utter drivel; but it's well-written, and IMO rather engaging. I definitely took to the series -- first few books in it, at any rate (ran to seven or eight volumes IIRC). After the first few, I ran out of steam a bit; but plan in the fullness of time, to re-read, and go further with the series.

I rather liked the series too, thoug there's pure SF not AH. I've reused bits of it in my gaming (mainly Traveller). The last three books are actually set on other planets with Raj present 'in spirit' via advanced technology. Book 6 The Chosen is basically a thinly veiled version Stirling's Draka with the final war occurring with WW2 tech and very obvious parallels to the 1890-1950 period.
ETA: all eight books are available for free online.

 

[fleabeetle]

catsmate1 -- Stirling / Drake "The General" series: nice that you're, if not a fan, a "liker". I have the feeling that this series gets rather overlooked, even by many Stirling devotees. Must get back to it, whether online or per "dead tree".

 

[catsmate]

catsmate1 -- Stirling / Drake "The General" series: nice that you're, if not a fan, a "liker". I have the feeling that this series gets rather overlooked, even by many Stirling devotees. Must get back to it, whether online or per "dead tree".

I must get back to them myself, I didn't read the last two books yet. The Chosen seemed very compressed to me, I think it had been intended to be 2-3 volumes.