Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[PhantomWolf]

Maybe they were running laps around the building, like the end of a Benny Hill episode.

I get the feeling that there are actually people here that believe that.

 

[PhantomWolf]

If he did not approach him hoow did the tussle occur?

Because TM was an imoblie statue? It's not possible that he approached GZ to demand to know why GZ was following him?

Again you got not get away from the lack of reporting of any criminal behaviour by GZ on the part of TM no matter what twists and turns you take to defelect from that, it is not in the transcript. all there is , is GZ said saying someone is acting suspciously and thats it it does not say has just climbed a fence attempted to break into a car or a house.

Again this is totally irrelevant to anything, thereis no legal requirement for there to have been a criminal offence for you to follow someone.

 

[Noztradamus]

He sure doesn't look like a tug boat.

It's a euphemism for "wanker"

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Zimmerman doesn't really have time to get to the gate and back to the altercation by the timed end of Martin's phone call to his gf.

7:13:41 - Zimmerman hangs up his call to police. I assume this is not in dispute.

The phone call to GF started at 7:12 p.m. and lasted for four minutes - so until 7:16 approx.
(http://mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSBRE82I17520120320)

That sounds like plenty of time ?

Secondly, at 19:14:54, Zimmermans starts to agree to meet the cops at the mail boxes, but if he's on his way to the back gate he's at least 2-3 minutes away from them. Why not suggest meeting the cops at the rear exit, less than half a minute away?

He did change his mind and say 'can they call me'.

Thirdly, that makes a lot of sense. He believes Martin is making for that rear exit. To use it Martin would have to cross Retreat View Circle. But Z has had the full length under view since 19:13:49 (according to the WAGST reconstruction). So if Zimmerman tells the cops he'll meet them at the rear exit, he never crosses path with Martin. The cops arrive two minutes later, Zimmerman tells them that the suspect hasn't left yet, and if they call out the Tactical Response Team, the K-9 squad, and the Police Helicopter, they can sweep Retreat at Twin Lakes Community for the perp who was looking around.

 

[KatieG]

Under American (Florida preferably) law, please describe what circumstances allow one to legally initiate a physical altercation.

Oh, sarcasm, and so early in the morning. Fighting is not legal so that's a ridiculous question. However, just because 1 person struck the first blow doesn't mean the other person is allowed to pull out the gun and shoot him. A fist vs. a gun is not equal force.

 

[PhantomWolf]

It does not matter that htere is not a law saying that thats an irrelevence the pertinent fact is there was no reported criminal behaviour on the part of TM to warrant the action taken.

Once again, there is no need for criminal actions to be followed. The whole why did GZ find TM suspicious is a total red herring to the real issue which is who started the altercation that lead to the shooting.

 

[KatieG]

Once again, there is no need for criminal actions to be followed. The whole why did GZ find TM suspicious is a total red herring to the real issue which is who started the altercation that lead to the shooting.

Again, you are wrong. You keep moving the cheese so it's hard to keep up with the things you are mistaken about.

 

[crimresearch]

Under American (Florida preferably) law, please describe what circumstances allow one to legally initiate a physical altercation.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231831

 

[PhantomWolf]

I don't understand why people still can't grasp the concept that not taking Trayvon's family's/family lawyer's word as gospel does not automatically equate to believing Zimmerman. It has not or ever will ever be an honest statement. Zimmerman's version of events has always been treated as a possible, not a probable or a fact.

Because everything has to be partisan, if you aren't for them, you are against them and in the enemies' camp. It's funny when both camps consider you to be against them and one of the enemy. It's the fun of sitting in the middle, you catch flak from both sides.

 

[PhantomWolf]

There's currently no evidence that GZ stopped TM, or even intended to stop TM.

There's currently no evidence that GZ made any mistakes.

But keep on repeating it, maybe it will turn out to be true when we hear the evidence and we can call you Nostradamus.

Leaving the SUV the first time was a mistake, and dumb, he put his life in danger. Leaving the second time was a moronic move. He's lucky not to have become the 4.4 shot with their own gun rather than the 1 that shots the other person.

 

[PhantomWolf]

We still get not get away form the one solid piece of evidence the 911 transcript which does not mention any criminal activity at all on the part of TM everything else is sheer speculation.

Yes because by clinging to a red herring you can ignore everything else that happened afterall and blame GZ for not having perfect hindsight before the event.

So without stopping him how did GZ get into a tussle with him as has been reported and then shoot and kill him?

Because it's impossible that TM was the one that did the approaching.

 

[PhantomWolf]

yes after it appears that he had trailed this boy then gets out of a car armed, someone did that to me I think I would be considering taking some action to defend myself that could be construed as criminal but hey they have this stand your ground self defence law in florida I would cite that...

Except that what you seem to believe happen never did, and as far as we know, until the fight, TM didn't even know that GZ had a gun on him. Attacking someone you think is following you is not defending yourself, it's assault, plain and simple, even with the SYG.

 

[CORed]

About the NW thing? Funny, Frank Taafe, a friend of GZ's and a resident of that community, claims GZ was a an active member of their NW.

Alas, who to believe? Can't have it both ways.

Whether GZ was a member of Neighborhood Watch, their rules are sensible, and it was foolish for GZ to follow TM. The result of that foolish decision demonstrate exactly why untrained individuals should leave actually confronting a "suspicious" person to the police.

 

[PhantomWolf]

He didn't want an obvious criminal to get away.

How would telling the 911 dispatcher that TM had run for it, and then obviously running after him, when in reality he hadn't, prevent him from getting away?

 

[often mrunderstood]

Oh, sarcasm, and so early in the morning. Fighting is not legal so that's a ridiculous question. However, just because 1 person struck the first blow doesn't mean the other person is allowed to pull out the gun and shoot him. A fist vs. a gun is not equal force.

You can't legally shoot someone for punching you in the nose.
You might be able to legally shoot an unarmed person who is attempting to beat you into unconsciousness.
This case seems to be somewhere in between, with few facts at the most important moments.

 

[Noztradamus]

Secondly, the mere act of walking around after dark in the rain is suspicious? Are you serious? A word of advice: Don't go to New York City on a rainy night. You won't like what you see.

"This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something"

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/252/263598.jpg

 

[CORed]

...I'm sorry, but walking down a street with your head level is not in any way equivalent to breaking onto a car. And actually, we have not established that Martin was "looking at houses", much less doing anything actually suspicious like peering into windows.

And the notion that a hoodie is "suspicious" is simply laughable. Hoodies are pretty standard clothing, due to their comfort and versatility. If you go out in the US on any cold day or night, you'll see them on every third person.

The notion that a teenage boy going out inadequately dressed for the weather (if in fact he was) is abnormal or suspicious is pretty laughable.

 

[curi0us]

Um, no. There was no reason to think anything "suspicious" was going on.

You don't actually know that.

It's very common for people who are mugged to report a series of events where they had a bad feeling about someone before anything actually occurred.

My last experience with street crime (a while ago) I suspected because of the guy's eyes something was up and as we were walking past each other he threw a punch at me. It was very easy to handle since I wasn't surprised by it. I've had half a dozen similar experiences.

The last experience of street crime for a friend of mine she was suspicious in advance in that she got a weird vibe ofF her mugger at a distance but wasn't sure how to react. He hadn't really done anything yet so she just kept walking like nothing was wrong. She has a really impressive martial arts (MMA) background and probably could easily beat down the average mugger, but this guy turned out to have a gun.

Many years ago I had a roommate who had a very bad experience with mugging that turned into a sexual assault where she had a bad vibe early but was't sure what to do. As she was coming home to our apartment complex there was a guy standing in the alcove of the main entrance that her intuition told shouldn't be there and she thought about just not going home at that instant, but then what? Walk around the block and see if he is still there? She regretted not doing something like that but she thought was probably just being paranoid. (This was before cell phones were common.)

None of those attackers had done anything wrong, up until the moment they did. To complicates issues even more all those attackers were black. Are you morally offended by the people in those situations being "suspicious"? Want to double down and label that suspicion as racism as well? You'll have plenty of company if you take that route.

 

[PhantomWolf]

The claim that there's no evidence that Zimmerman made a mistake is false. Zimmerman's own 911 call records him making several mistakes, the two major mistakes being:

Let's look shall we?

Reporting someone as "suspicious" and "on drugs" without cause, and

It wasn't without cause. You might not like the cause and personally wouldn't have done the same, but it wasn't without it. This is a little like people claiming there is no proof they went to the moon.

Chasing after someone he erroneously believed was suspicious.

Once again, he didn't chase, he followed, different thing. Chasing implies a trying to catch, there is zero evidence of that, following means heading in the same direction at a distance. The evidence says that this is more likely.

Having said that I agree that following TM was a mistake, had TM been armed the headlines would have been rather different.

Doing so while armed is an additional mistake.

Again I'd have to agree, in a struggle you're 4.4 times more likely to be shot by your own weapon than to shoot the other person. Of course had he not had it, again the headlines might have been rather different.

 

[RandFan]

The notion that a teenage boy going out inadequately dressed for the weather (if in fact he was) is abnormal or suspicious is pretty laughable.

I grew up in Utah and when it is cold and raining people bundle up. I'll never forget the first time I came to California and saw people wearing shorts on cold rainy days. I've been here 30 years now and I've sorta come to accept it.