Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[LTC8K6]

You will have to explain the humorous part of that to me.

He accepts Zimmerman's "waistband" claim, but discounts it as meaning anything. That's funny to me. Why would he accept Zimmerman's claim? Why not just say Zimmerman made it up? There's no evidence for it, after all.

In fact, it's a street move to indicate that you have a gun, to get someone to back off of you.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Erm, in what way was he strange. You have a guy.

Strange as in unknown, a stranger, not strange as in Uncle Charlie from Stranton.

 

[PhantomWolf]

How do you know what GZ said to the dispatcher is true? Just because he said it?

The other day I posted in another thread the exact quote from the dispatcher. I know GZ wasn't ordered not to follow TM. I just don't presume that what GZ told the dispatcher is the whole truth.

What reason did GZ have to lie to the 911 Dispatcher? In fact any lie to the 911 Dispatcher would make this a Murder 1 case since it would have been premeditated.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Would anyone care to wager how long before one of Zimmerman's exes is on TV being interviewed? I'm willing to wager that there are media outlets trying to track them down right now. At some point one of them will offer enough money to snag some juicy interviews.

 

[a_unique_person]

What reason did GZ have to lie to the 911 Dispatcher? In fact any lie to the 911 Dispatcher would make this a Murder 1 case since it would have been premeditated.

He didn't want an obvious criminal to get away.

 

[sgtbaker]

We still get not get away form the one solid piece of evidence the 911 transcript which does not mention any criminal activity at all on the part of TM everything else is sheer speculation.

So without stopping him how did GZ get into a tussle with him as has been reported and then shoot and kill him?

Suspicious and criminal are not synonyms. Suspicious could be criminal but it could also be a mistake. Sometimes even apparent criminal behavior can be a mistake. I was parking at the store a few months ago. The car I parked directly in front of, had a two or three year old little girl sitting the car seat, alone. I stood, torn for a few seconds; do I call the police or mind my own business? I walked to the side of the car to see if maybe there was someone else in the back seat that I couldn't see. The side windows were completely blacked out so I looked through the windshield again. The only thing in the back seat was the carseat, holding this little girl, alone. The car was left running, which infuriated me, anyone could have climbed in and stolen the car, and this toddler, along with it. I called the 911, gave them the location, gave them the description of the car and the license plate number. I waited outside and kept an eye on the car. Before the police got there, the owner of the car came out and began loading up their groceries. I was now furious because it wasn't just one person, but two people. Why didn't one of them wait in the car if they didn't feel like bringing the toddler in? The cops got there before they were able to leave and questioned them. Then they came over and asked me how many people came out of the store. I told them two and he informed me that there was a third person with them, who claims to have been laying in the third row seat of the car. I should have known it had a third row because I used to own the same damn car. I couldn't see someone back there because the windows were blacked out but it never even dawned on me to consider the third row. I saw all that I needed to see to convince me that something was wrong. In hindsight, I could have knocked to see if someone was in the third row and saved a lot of people a lot of trouble. Instead, I called the cops on people who were minding their own business and well within the law. It happens.

Just because Zimmerman made a mistake in profiling Martin, just because he saw all he thought he needed to see to convince him that Martin was up to no good, it does not automatically mean that he turned into some vigilante, chasing down and attempting to hold Martin. Is it possible? Of course but nothing about calling the police reporting a suspicious person or getting out of the car automatically leads me to conclude that he set out to capture Martin.

 

[PhantomWolf]

How do you know what GZ said to the dispatcher is true? Just because he said it?

The other day I posted in another thread the exact quote from the dispatcher. I know GZ wasn't ordered not to follow TM. I just don't presume that what GZ told the dispatcher is the whole truth.

One other thing. If you have only read the transcript, I suggest listening to the actual call. After GZ says that TM has run, you hear hear exit the SUV and then start running. His voice becomes strained, and you can hear the air passing over the microphone in the phone. The call continues for about 2 minutes after that, and it's at least another minute between the end of the 9/11 call and the TM's call to his gf terminating. If TM didn't run when GZ said he did, how come it took so long to catch up to him?

 

[Steve]

Well, informing someone that's offering an opinion on a message board that if they were on a jury they should not be basing their opinion on what they've read in the media and that's it's unethical to do so is frankly a silly non-point and stating the obvious. So I figured I'd be equally silly and make a similar point that if you were on the jury you shouldn't be talking with him.

I'm not getting this either. Let's just drop it.

 

[crimresearch]

That Stand your ground law looks like a blank cheque as long as other withnesses are not about to counter the argument of the killer

And your assertion, which has been debunked repeatedly, looks pretty empty as well.

 

[crimresearch]

I think instead of fiinding reasons to give a killer of an innocent an excuse we should be focusing on the issues it raises, a bad law and what type of people should be allowed to operate Neighbourhood watches.

ANd yes Zimmeran is a killer based on nothing but the suspcions he created for himself.

Zimmerman is a killer, based on his pulling the trigger. The fact that you want to throw out thousands of years of legal precedent with the monsyllabic assertion 'bad law', is not persuasive.

 

[crimresearch]

About the NW thing? Funny, Frank Taafe, a friend of GZ's and a resident of that community, claims GZ was a an active member of their NW.

Alas, who to believe? Can't have it both ways.

The police have Zimmerman saying he was not doing anything related to NW, he was on a personal errand.
And of course, NW itself saying that they don't have a military rank structure, that the duties of a 'block captain' are to keep track of addresses and phone numbers in a small part of the neighborhood, not to be in charge of anything or anyone, that they don't patrol alone, and they don't patrol armed, or pursue people.

So who exactly do you believe?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Absolutely wrong. I have no problem (per se) with your view on guns, that's perfectly fine. However, it's estimated that 1 in 4 people in the US own guns. Of those people whom own guns legally, one a VERY small portion commit crimes with them.

Well it's still to be determined if that was the case here. Interestingly if you crunch to the figures, on average 1 in 31 gun owners in the US will have their weapon used to cause a death or an injury each year. Seems a tad high to me, though admittedly this includes self inflicted one. Other interesting things include that you are four times more likely to accidently shoot someone in your home than you are to shoot and intruder in your home, and you are four and a half times more likely to be shot with your own gun if you get in a fight than you are to shoot the other person. Seems on that last one GZ got lucky.

Acting suspiciously? Walking is suspicious now? Holy **** man.....

As noted previously, it was just the walking that created the suspicious behaviour, it was the combination of factors, the hoodie, the rain, the cold, the dark, looking at houses as he wandered. I guess the question I'd have to ask is what do you think a person would have to be doing to be considered as acting suspicious?

No, it was, without a doubt, Zimmerman act the way Zimmerman did. Martin cannot dictate what someone else does. Sorry, not buying that BS story.

You should read the discussion I've been having with NBS on this very topic. It's true that TM could not make GZ decide to do something, but at the same time, his actions can influence GZ to make the decision. Based on the 911 call, the weather, and what TM was wearing, if I was in the neighbourhood watch, I'd have rung the police too.

So, walking through the neighborhood is suspicious

In certain circumstances, yes.

and running away from some dude who is following you

I have yet to see evidence that GZ was following TM yet. At first I assumed he followed his slowly in the car for some distance, but from the 911 call that seems to be wrong, that he spotted him as he passed TM and then pulled over and watched him before calling the police. If there is other evidence on this I'd be happy to see it to clarify what did happen. Certainly at the time TM ran, GZ seems to have ben parked on the side of the road talking on the phone to the 911 dispatcher. GZ describes TM approaching the vehicle, then running. If you were sitting ina car watching someone you felt was suspicious and they walked towards your car, looked at you, then turned and ran, would you consider that move evidence of suspicious behaviour?

then being chased by the person

There is little evidence that GZ chased TM, he did follow after him, but he'd lost sight of him and then went the wrong way. That some really good chasing.

and it's Martin's fault?

depends what he did next. If he actually approached and attacked GZ, then yes, if GZ approached and attacked him, then no.

Please tell me you don't actually believe that load of horse excrement.

I go where the evidence takes me, not where I want the truth to be, or where it's good for my biases to go. That means not ignoring evidence I don't like. Currently the evidence is that TM was doing something more than just walking that attracted GZ's attention and made him suspicious. There is no evidence disputing it, only people not wanting it to be true so discounting it without cause.

 

[Mumbles]

There's currently no evidence that GZ stopped TM, or even intended to stop TM.

There's currently no evidence that GZ made any mistakes.

But keep on repeating it, maybe it will turn out to be true when we hear the evidence and we can call you Nostradamus.

The claim that there's no evidence that Zimmerman made a mistake is false. Zimmerman's own 911 call records him making several mistakes, the two major mistakes being:

Reporting someone as "suspicious" and "on drugs" without cause, and

Chasing after someone he erroneously believed was suspicious.

Doing so while armed is an additional mistake.

 

[PhantomWolf]

You must live in a different part of America than I do. Where I live it's perfectly legal for people to take walks outside, even in hoodies! They even get to look at houses, or the stars or moon if they like. Now if they walk through peoples yards it might be a different story. Frankly I have not studied the maps like several people in this thread have, but I don' recall GZ's suspicion being because TM was in private yards but I may well be wrong about that, correct me if I am.

I don't live in the US at all (didn't the flag in my sig alert you to that?)

I'm also not suggesting that it's not legal to walk in a hoodie, even on a dark, cold, rainy night. I'm not even suggesting that it's not legal to look at houses on the way, just noting that if you do, you should be willing to answer questions from the police because doing that is suspicious behaviour.

It's legal to jimmy your car door in the middle of a public parking place too, that doesn't mean that if you try it you're not going to be getting a copuple of friendly cops turn up to find out if you're stealing the thing.

The thing is that there are loads of behaviours that are perfectly legal and innocent, but can be taken as suspicious by others, acting like a burgler casing houses to rob is one of them even if you are really out for a totally innocent walk.

 

[Dcdrac]

The claim that there's no evidence that Zimmerman made a mistake is false. Zimmerman's own 911 call records him making several mistakes, the two major mistakes being:

Reporting someone as "suspicious" and "on drugs" without cause, and

Chasing after someone he erroneously believed was suspicious.

Doing so while armed is an additional mistake.

Seconded he should have waited for the Police and kpet level headed he did not that is clear from the transcript alone.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I have no idea how the Martin family takes and maintains their pictures so this is just more speculation. I can say that my mother had way more printed photos of me than I have of my children because most of my kids pictures are digital. It was only about a month ago that I finally bought a cheap photo printer, so until a month ago, the only recent pictures I had on hand were school pictures. The last year my son was in public school, 2010, I lost his school picture envelope. Then he went into a school for children with special needs and they don't have "picture day." The reason I bought a printer was so that I could take a picture of my son, print out an 8x10 and put it up on the wall with my daughters' pictures. Until last month, the most recent printed picture I had of my son was from 2009.

Were the pictures misleading? Absolutely! I remember one of the intial arguments against Zimmerman's claim was that there was no way that skinny little kid could possibly overpower big giant Zimmerman.

The mystery was solved, it was provided by a PR firm working for the family. Whether they deliberately requested a photo from the family that would help them spin things to their side or not I doubt we'll ever know, but we all know how evil PR firms are, I mean look at how the PR Supertanker corrupted the Italian justice system and freed Amanda Knox.

 

[Dcdrac]

From reading acorss the net and newspapers of varisous stripes, it is clear there are two camps, those who depseratly want GZ to be some kind of nazi gun totting loon with an agenda

or those who desperatly want TM to have been committing a crime in order to exonerate GZ or fulfill some kind of racial profileing of crime agenda.

To me GZ was a fool who with the best of intentions tried to do something for the community he clearly was not cut out to do, with tragic consequences he has taken a life nothing no legal siphistry is going to change that, he is responsible and culpable.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Yes, FROM THE POLICE! You're correct, most people whom run from the police, aren't innocent. However, Zimmerman was NOT the police, and didn't identify himself as anything with any kind of authority.

Use your brain Phantom, I know you can.

So it's perfectly normal behaviour to run away from a guy parked in a car talking on the phone?

 

[Dan O.]

One other thing. If you have only read the transcript, I suggest listening to the actual call. After GZ says that TM has run, you hear hear exit the SUV and then start running. His voice becomes strained, and you can hear the air passing over the microphone in the phone. The call continues for about 2 minutes after that, and it's at least another minute between the end of the 9/11 call and the TM's call to his gf terminating. If TM didn't run when GZ said he did, how come it took so long to catch up to him?

Where did GZ leave his vehicle and what was the interval from when TM's friend hears the headset drop and the call is dropped?

 

[Mumbles]

I don't live in the US at all (didn't the flag in my sig alert you to that?)

I'm also not suggesting that it's not legal to walk in a hoodie, even on a dark, cold, rainy night. I'm not even suggesting that it's not legal to look at houses on the way, just noting that if you do, you should be willing to answer questions from the police because doing that is suspicious behaviour.

It's legal to jimmy your car door in the middle of a public parking place too, that doesn't mean that if you try it you're not going to be getting a copuple of friendly cops turn up to find out if you're stealing the thing.

The thing is that there are loads of behaviours that are perfectly legal and innocent, but can be taken as suspicious by others, acting like a burgler casing houses to rob is one of them even if you are really out for a totally innocent walk.

...I'm sorry, but walking down a street with your head level is not in any way equivalent to breaking onto a car. And actually, we have not established that Martin was "looking at houses", much less doing anything actually suspicious like peering into windows.

And the notion that a hoodie is "suspicious" is simply laughable. Hoodies are pretty standard clothing, due to their comfort and versatility. If you go out in the US on any cold day or night, you'll see them on every third person.