Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[PhantomWolf]

How do you know TM was looking at houses suspciously?

Umm, have you actually listened to the 911 call? If not, I recommend you do instead of asking dumb questions.

and what is a suspcious way of looking at a house?

Well on a night were it is raining, cold and dark, I'd suggest that wandering down the road looking at the houses rather then concentrating on where you are heading, that'd be a good start.

The only solid fact is GZ did not report any criminal activity on TMs part

and your point? Until you can show that he needed to have some form of criminal activity before either ringing the cops or following TM, your point is irrelevant, apart from it not being the only solid fact. And even if it was the only solid fact, it still doesn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that GZ is guilty or anything other then being stupid at putting his own life in danger.

 

[Mumbles]

So it's perfectly normal behaviour to run away from a guy parked in a car talking on the phone?

It's reasonable to get away from such a person, if they're staring at you, yes. And it's very reasonable to become alarmed if you discover them following you - in fact, it would be stupid to not treat that person as a threat.

And of course, given Zimmerman's bizarre anger and inability to describe any sort of problem with Martin's behavior, we have no reason to think that Martin actually ran in the first place, but that's another issue.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Exactly. There is nowhere for Martin to hide. So, PLEASE, tell me where do you think he went and what do you think he did after GZ told 911 he ran ?

The claim that there's no evidence that Zimmerman made a mistake is false. Zimmerman's own 911 call records him making several mistakes, the two major mistakes being:

Reporting someone as "suspicious" and "on drugs" without cause, and

Chasing after someone he erroneously believed was suspicious.

Doing so while armed is an additional mistake.

http://www.google.com/search?q=neighborhood+watch+report+suspicious+activities

Feel free to find numerous references admonishing you to call the authorities for suspicious activities like loitering. peering in windows, acting strangely, etc.

 

[RandFan]

Since it was established very early on that he was not part of any official Neighbourhood Watch group, it would seem irrelevant what the NW think he should or shouldn't have done, he wasn't bound by their rules.

First off, I don't know that it has been established but even if it has, there are reasons for rules. A person who has a gun has responsibilities to ensure other people's safety.

Have you listened to the 911 call? GZ states several times that TM ran off.

"Ran off"? I don't know that for a fact.

There was no evidence that he wasn't planning to commit one either, and I don't recall any law that says you can't follow someone unless there is evidence of imminent danger.

Not my argument. However, things that are legal can be negligent. It's okay to have a loaded gun on a table. It's not okay to put a loaded gun on a table where children are playing.

The evidence is already out there, listen to the 911 call.

I have, I don't remember "run off". I think you are making that up. My apologies if not.

 

[RandFan]

I don't think that less than one call a month from someone out specifically looking for possible crime boils down to "a whack job or is simply hyper sensitive seeing suspicion all over the place" do you?

If there are no arrests? Yes. Absolutely.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Where did GZ leave his vehicle and what was the interval from when TM's friend hears the headset drop and the call is dropped?

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/the-missing-230-and-deedees-testimony

The above URL answers your question in detail.

 

[PhantomWolf]

If it was that cold, why wouldn't someone be bundled up if they were walking around outside? It wasn't that it was that cold, it was raining. Most people cover their heads when walking in the rain. TM was a visitor there. After having seen the complex, it appears to me it's easy to get lost or lose your bearings if you're unfamiliar with the area. Looking around at houses should not be consider suspicious behaviour in and of itself. To think that way lies madness.

Once again, for me the behaviour is suspicious not for the individual elements, but for the elements as a total. It's not normal behaviour to walk in the rain on a cold dark night wearing only a hoodie for protection, and looking at the houses you're going past. Again, as pointed out numerous times, yes there could be an innocent explaination, but for people that aren't mind readers and don't have the benefit of hindsight, when does the stranger in a hoodie out walking on a horrid night looking at the houses in the street where there had been previous recent burglaries go from being innocent to being a possible criminal?

If GZ had waves his hand and said, "Nah. it's probably innocent," and not rung the police and instead of TM it had been our friendly burglar Jimmy Jones, leading to someone being burgled, would that have been a good result for you?

 

[RandFan]

Exactly how would approaching him with a conceal weapon lead to an esculation that approaching him without one wouldn't?

First off, the gun make the confrontation more risky. Second, people who are armed can give the holders a sense of power to act recklessly. I don't know if the second part is true in this case but you did ask the question.

There was no evidence that a crime wasn't being planned, and at least to GZ reason to believe it might be.

Fatuous. By this logic everyone should call the police every time someone sees someone strange.

Following someone doesn't put them at risk...

TM is dead.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I have, I don't remember "run off". I think you are making that up. My apologies if not.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left...uh you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. **** he's running. Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher: What's your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It's a home it's 1950, oh crap I don't want to give it all out, I don't know where this kid is.
Either we accept it is true, or you can decide that GZ was secretly plotting to kill TM already, and was just lying about not giving out his address becuase he lost sight of TM to set up his alibi

 

[Travis]

So in your opinion actively protecting your neighbours by looking for anyone that might be up to no good and then ringing the cops to report it is a bad thing?

If you actually are seeing a crime it is not a bad thing at all. But Zimmerman wasn't doing that now was he? He was calling the cops over someone that had a right to be there and was doing nothing wrong. Then he decided to get out of his truck and do something about the nonexistent crime.

So what? I just explained why it mattered with multiple links explaining the situation and you just quote responded to that post yet snipped out the answer. Unless your Johnny Karate's sock this was a weak ass way to jump into an argument with me

Since you didn't bother to read or think about what I wrote I'll spell it out for again. Mary Cutcher is actually a fantastic witness for GZ but she was tricked (like a lot of other people) into thinking something very different happened then what she initially saw/heard by a concerted campaign to mislead the people on TM's age/size. Her telling the media she knew it wasn't self defense was rooted in her idea that TM was a "little boy".

I'm still not seeing what you are upset about.

I've have suspicion you are massively underestimating my experience here though.

And you might be underestimating mine.

When I say "maybe" TM was more of a thug then his parents realized just TM beating on another man while he is yelling for help over a minute is pretty damn thuggish all by itself. If you haven't already done so go listen to 911 audio with the screams closely. I've always been very consistent in my belief that if the screams really were Martin then GZ committed a serious murder beyond a doubt. But if the screams are GZ it makes TM seem like a violent thug and GZ comes across as actually really restrained. If GZ was really the reckless hothead everyone portrays him to be why would he be screaming for help for a full minute before shooting TM? On the flip side, if TM was really the good boy on the "right path" as his parents say why did he keep beating the person underneath him who was screaming?

No it doesn't. Even if TM was wailing on him he deserved it at that point.

How many victims of violent crimes have you known? Find one and start making up details of what happened to them while telling them what they should have done differently mixed in with some cheap insults and see how well that goes.

Well I've known two people that were shot and killed by someone else. One was my brother.

But who are you talking about here?

Maybe you can explain to me why the New Black Panthers putting a bounty on Zimmerman was legal?

Um, what? Even if that happened I'm not sure why I should defend it and what it has to do with anything being said here in this forum.

 

[crimresearch]

If there are no arrests? Yes. Absolutely.

Out of all the obvious documented things that undermine Zimmerman's credibility, you want to focus on the fact that the police didn't arrest a lost 8 year old, a pothole, and some people that weren't there when they arrived?

This is the type of stuff that has made Nancy Grace rich.

 

[RandFan]

Why does it have to be about illuminating why TM is dead?

Because TM is dead and it can't change the facts.

Why can't it ba about illuminating how and why the misbelief about the events after started, and whether that misbelief and media report influenced subsequent witness statments?

We can't know what was in their minds. All you can do is speculate. There is no good that can come of it other than to be a red herring and casting aspersion on a family that is suffering.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Fatuous. By this logic everyone should call the police every time someone sees someone strange.

Not fatuous. That's exactly what all those neighborhood watch organizations recommend. You know, the ones with the rules you keep referring to ?

 

[RandFan]

Either we accept it is true, or you can decide that GZ was secretly plotting to kill TM already, and was just lying about not giving out his address becuase he lost sight of TM to set up his alibi

Dude? Seriously? I only asked for the source. I never demanded that it would demonstrate anything one way or the other. You have been a fair and decent person in our conversations.

Please don't start with that. I'm happy to concede the was said in the call.

 

[Mumbles]

Once again, for me the behaviour is suspicious not for the individual elements, but for the elements as a total. It's not normal behaviour to walk in the rain on a cold dark night wearing only a hoodie for protection, and looking at the houses you're going past.

The point, though, is that this is very ordinary behavior - particularly if the "rain" is a light drizzle. Again, a hoodie is standard gear in that sort of weather, and looking around is what pretty much everyone does when they're walking. You claim that there "could" be an innocent explanation, but I can't come up with an explanation that is anything else. What, is he picking future break-in's based on the siding of the houses - assuming that he was actually looking at houses in the first place?

If GZ had waves his hand and said, "Nah. it's probably innocent," and not rung the police and instead of TM it had been our friendly burglar Jimmy Jones, leading to someone being burgled, would that have been a good result for you?

Well, yes, since property is not as valuable as life. But never mind that, again, Zimmerman failed to give a reason to believe that Martin was anything but some guy Walking around outside in the first place.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Dude? Seriously? I only asked for the source. I never demanded that it would demonstrate anything one way or the other. You have been a fair and decent person in our conversations.

Please don't start with that. I'm happy to concede the was said in the call.

Apologies. It's not you, so much as other posters earlier today stating they can't even necessarily believe what GZ said on the call.

 

[RandFan]

Not fatuous. That's exactly what all those neighborhood watch organizations recommend. You know, the ones with the rules you keep referring to ?

I see "strange" people every day. I'm really supposed to call the police every time I see them? Just because there are people walking through my neighborhood that I don't recognize, and just because they could be criminals is hardly a reason to call the police.

But let's accept your premise to advance the discussion. What started the thread that lead to that exchange?

• No crime had been committed.
• No one was in imminent danger.

There was no need to put TM's life in danger. Would you not agree with that argument? Let me say up front that I do not claim that assuming those facts alone does not make GZ criminally negligent.

 

[RandFan]

Apologies. It's not you, so much as other posters earlier today stating they can't even necessarily believe what GZ said on the call.

No problem. I know these conversations can get heated. And I have very much appreciated your tone and willingness to have a good faith discussion.

 

[PhantomWolf]

It's obvious to me that Phantom has never lived in Florida.

The flag in my sig didn't give that away?

And WRT: cold day. I am showing that on Feb. 26th, the high was....69 deg. and the low was 53, and at about 7pm, is was about 62-63 deg. So, not much change, and a very light drizzle.

So, the fact that he only had on a hoodie as protection, is not surprising.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

Cheers!

Thanks for that, that is quite different to what has been posted previously, and seems the 11 degrees, was the previous night. I will alter my responses as appropriate on that.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I see "strange" people every day. I'm really supposed to call the police every time I see them? Is that what you do? Just because there are people walking through my neighborhood that I don't recognize, and just because they could be criminals is hardly a reason to call the police.

But let's accept your premise to advance the discussion. What started the thread that lead to that exchange?

• No crime had been committed.
• No one was in imminent danger.

There was no need to put TM's live in danger. Would you not agree with that argument?

I am just tired of people claiming GZ had no reason to call 911. He did have a reason. The NW groups say 'call if you see something suspicious' etc. So yes, let's agree he was justified in calling and move on.

I agree with both things. you stated.

I also think I understand your POV that GZ is culpable simply for following TM while armed.

I think we simply disagree on the level of culpability.