Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[PhantomWolf]

1. One could just as easily say that the way GZ acted caused TM to act the way he did!

Really? How did GZ make TM wander slowly down the street on a cold, dark night in the rain while staring at the houses? How did GZ sitting in a truck watching him and talking on the phone make him bolt for it?

2. How do we know TM was acting suspiciously? That's entirely in the eye of the beholder. Have you read the 911 calls of what GZ considered suspicious? I don't trust that TM was acting suspiciously, and I'm certainly not going to trust GZ's interpretation of that.

I did one better, I listened to the call, a number of times. Personally I'd start with walking about in the rain on a cold, dark night wearing just a hoodie for protection. This is not normal behaviour. There is also no evidence that GZ was ringing the police everytime he saw someone out walking at night either, so it's clear that TM was doing something that was unusal enough to stand out from anyone else GZ had seen walking about.

Quick story. Years ago when I was about 20, one night when I was on some dark streets driving a car kept following me, every time I turned it would turn. Since we were the only cars on the street it was too much of a coincidence, and I started to freak out, I thought they were up to no good and perhaps had bad intentions. So the next stop sight I hit I ran through it at full speed with the intention of getting away from them. next thing I know lights are blinking and I realized it was cops that had been following me. of course the a******** still give me a ticket after confirming I was not a threat even though they caused the event.

No, they didn't cause you to run the stop sign, you did that yourself out of your own paranoia. Whether you like it or not, you made that decision all on your own, exactly the same as when I sped up well over the speed limit to get a good distance between myself and a car that was behind me. When it turn out to be a cop car the only person I had to blame was myself. Sure I wouldn't have sped had he not been there, but I still made the decision to do it.

Anyhow, I can totally relate to how someone can react to someone following you!

From what I can tell the following started after TM ran for it. It appears that GZ saw TM walking as he drove past, then thinking he looked suspect, stopped and watched him, then rung 911. TM walked past the truck, then turned around and headed back towards the truck, stared at GZ, then turned around and ran. That's a pretty strange reaction to have.

At the same time there are so many factors like why the hell didn't TM run??

He did. I'd ask the question, why did he turn around and head back towards GZ after running? The claims in another thread that he maybe got lost orthat he fell or ran into a tree just don't seem plausable to me given the area.

Alternatively I can easily imagine GZ following YM being enough to provoke TM to attack GZ, especially if he thought he was in danger.

And I'll restate it again, someone following you is NOT an excuse to attack them. Even if they follow you swearing and yelling at you, that's not an excuse to attack them. Doing so, even if you think they might mean you harm, is assault or worse depending how far you go.

BUT I still don't know enough about how that confrontation came down to make a judgment on it, and we may never know other than what GZ tells us.

No one other than GZ does, which is why I stand where I do. Without knowing who instigated the fight, we can't conclusively state whether it was manslaughter or self defence. The whole who did what previous to that is really totally irrelevant to this fact and merely muddying of the waters. The criminal offence that lead to the death was done when one of them laid their hands on the other, and whoever did that is the one guilty of TM's death.

Many of the GZ is guilty crowd want the truth of what happened before hidden so that they can believe the falsehood that he chased TM down and instigated the fight. From the 911 call, it's clear this is not what happened. Rather it seems that both men made decisions that resulted in them meeting back up after GZ followed to where he thought TM was going and lost him. What happned after that, well as you say, we might never know.

 

[Dcdrac]

That Stand your ground law looks like a blank cheque as long as other withnesses are not about to counter the argument of the killer

 

[Checkmite]

Personally I'd start with walking about in the rain on a cold, dark night wearing just a hoodie for protection. This is not normal behaviour.

Which part? Walking at night, walking when it's raining, wearing a hoodie - which of these is unusual?

Zimmerman was allegedly in the middle of a store run too, when he spotted Martin. Of course, Z had a car; Martin didn't and had to walk - so what's "not normal" about that?

 

[Mumbles]

This meme needs to die already.

One of the perks of having your son shot to death is you get to pick the photos the media uses when they report the story. That people want to second guess the family and infer some kind of ulterior motive is insane.

Yeah, using either family photos, or mugshots, is absolutely standard practice in the media. It's how you avoid, say, pushing a photo of someone that doesn't look even vaguely similar to the victim, as happened among many right-wing sites in their rush to portray Martin as some sort of dangerous thug.

And it's pretty clear that the family has supplied several photos from yearbooks, family events, and the like. Complaining about a particular photo because it's too old is absurd.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Neighborhood Watch is an official group.

National Neighborhood Watch director criticizes Zimmerman's actions in Trayvon Martin shooting

If you don't want to follow the rules of Neighborhood Watch then don't claim you are a Neighborhood Watch coordinator.

Since it was established very early on that he was not part of any official Neighbourhood Watch group, it would seem irrelevant what the NW think he should or shouldn't have done, he wasn't bound by their rules.

I'm not talking about "at the time of the shooting". I'm talking about GZ leaving his vehicle. BTW: I've asked you 3 times now to support your claim about TM running away. Are you going to do that?

Have you listened to the 911 call? GZ states several times that TM ran off. The first time is 6 secs before GZ exited the vehicle. This can be determined by the sound of the car door.

This has nothing to do with my point.

• There was no evidence TM had committed a crime.
• There was no evidence of imminent danger.
• GZ didn't need to chase TM.

Please to focus on my argument and not something else.

There was no evidence that he wasn't planning to commit one either, and I don't recall any law that says you can't follow someone unless there is evidence of imminent danger. Can you provide one? Finally, he didn't "chase" TM, he followed him after TM ran off, and headed for the back gate where he (GZ) believed TM was going (something he told the Dispatcher during the 911 call.) Since it seems fairly certain that TM turned south along the path while GZ continued east to the gate, this isn't exactly "chasing" TM. The reality of it was that GZ lost sight of TM almost as soon as he ran for it, and didn't find him again for nearly two minutes, but that doesn't sound as good as that he got out of the truck and chased TM down till he caught him.

One more time for you to ignore me, please provide evidence of your claims?

The evidence is already out there, listen to the 911 call.

 

[Mumbles]

Most teens I know can text without looking at the phone, dialing 911 should be easy.

At this point, many of them have touchscreen phones, where you can't do much of anything without looking at the screen. And in fact, martin is supposed to have had an iPhone - which has special help for the hard-of-sight specifically because it's native setting is effectively impossible to use blind.

On a dark night in the rain, I'd suggest that it'd be easy to lose someone when you start with a 50-60m lead. Added to this that GZ stated to the Dispatcher that he believed that TM was heading to the back gate would mean he went the wrong way. What is clear is that he can't have gone directly to the scene of the fight because he was on his phone to 911 longer then it would have taken to get there.

I don't think any of this is really in evidence at this point. We don't actually know, in any specific term, where Martin or Zimmerman were at any point, aside from where the fight took place.

The more likely senario is that TM headed down towards the house he was staying, and then headed back, perhaps to see if the guy was still about, perhaps to give him a peice of his mind. Then either getting either back or nearly back to the t-junction of the paths, he realised it was dumb and started back home, only to have Zimmerman spot him on the way back from the gate. What happened after that is anyone's guess.

Again, at the memento there's no reason to suspect that Martin doubled back at all, and I doubt Zimmerman moved around nearly that far.

I wouldn't be surprised if GZ approached TM and let him know in uncertain terms what he thought of people sneaking about and what the F was he doing there. Whether TM decided to take a swing at that point or tried to walk away would be the clincher for me. If he attacked, then GZ should walk. If TM tried to walk away and GZ grabbed him, he should go down for manslaughter.

I'm still of the opinion that Zimmerman's behavior, even in the 911 call, was bizarre, and that if he got hit, it was because he had already given Martin strong reason to fear for his safety.

I can't see any reason to disbelieve GZ in the 911 call when he states that TM made a run for it several times. As for the rest of it, the gf wasn't there to know what happened, but her speculation would certainly fit the senario I have given above.

I can see a very simple reason - Zimmerman's very poor at describing things accurately. Among other things, he completely failed to describe any reason to think that Martin was on drugs, or any reason why Martin was suspicious.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I can accept that the call to police is genuine and also believe that it is possible that GZ is a whack job or is simply hyper sensitive seeing suspicion all over the place. Given the number of calls he made that would tend to support that idea. How many of those calls led to arrests?

I don't think that less than one call a month from someone out specifically looking for possible crime boils down to "a whack job or is simply hyper sensitive seeing suspicion all over the place" do you?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

No, they didn't cause you to run the stop sign, you did that yourself out of your own paranoia. Whether you like it or not, you made that decision all on your own, exactly the same as when I sped up well over the speed limit to get a good distance between myself and a car that was behind me. When it turn out to be a cop car the only person I had to blame was myself. Sure I wouldn't have sped had he not been there, but I still made the decision to do it.

Of course it was a "choice". It was also affected by someones elses choice to follow me and turn with me for every street on dark streets for a couple of miles and scare the hell out of me. Attempting to totally separate the two seems ridiculous to me as those who would blame homosexuality on all behavior or all environment. It is entirely possible that BOTH of these individuals bear some responsibility, and the main question from a legal standpoint is who bears the brunt of the responsibility for the confrontation and was GZ in fear for his life and being beaten at the moment he was shot.

Even if the answer to that is yes, and he is deemed not guilty, it doesn't mean his decisions or how he handled himself didn't possibly create a very dangerous and even predictable situation.

And I'll restate it again, someone following you is NOT an excuse to attack them. Even if they follow you swearing and yelling at you, that's not an excuse to attack them. Doing so, even if you think they might mean you harm, is assault or worse depending how far you go.

I agree, never suggested otherwise unlike some here. However it IS a huge part of the puzzle so it's one of the factors to think about in wondering how this might have happened.

 

[Dcdrac]

I think instead of fiinding reasons to give a killer of an innocent an excuse we should be focusing on the issues it raises, a bad law and what type of people should be allowed to operate Neighbourhood watches.

ANd yes Zimmeran is a killer based on nothing but the suspcions he created for himself.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Doing so armed. Approaching TM while armed would escalate the situation. I'd like to think people aren't that stupid but we both know better.

Exactly how would approaching him with a conceal weapon lead to an esculation that approaching him without one wouldn't? The only difference is if it comes to using it, and that means it already esculated out of control anyway.

• There was no evidence that a crime had been committed.
• There was no imminent danger prior to GZ choosing to follow TM.

I don't know what scenario is likely. I'll wait on that. Assuming GZ followed TM to the point of the confrontation then his actions put both GZ and TM at risk for no reason beyond suspicion.

• There was no evidence that a crime wasn't being planned, and at least to GZ reason to believe it might be.
• There was no imminent danger after to GZ chose to follow TM either, this didn't happen until one or other decided to put their hands on the other.

Following someone doesn't put them at risk, it might put you at risk if they turn out to be violent, but merely following someone can't harm them in any way.

 

[SezMe]

I wouldn't be surprised if GZ approached TM and let him know in uncertain terms what he thought of people sneaking about and what the F was he doing there. Whether TM decided to take a swing at that point or tried to walk away would be the clincher for me. If he attacked, then GZ should walk. If TM tried to walk away and GZ grabbed him, he should go down for manslaughter.

If he did, in fact, do that, then TM is on solid grounds no matter what because, remember, the Stand Your Ground idea applies to TM as well as GZ. If some guy is following him for no apparent reason and then the guy came up to him and started to give him a ration of **** then TM could rightfully claim to feel threatened and would be within SYG even if he did initiate physical action.

 

[KatieG]

Ah, good point. I forgot about the marijuana thing.

An empty bag with traces of marijuana. No proof it was his. Amazing to me how some of y'all are so ready to disbelieve anything that explains TM's behaviour but you believe everything GZ says about that night.

So to recap:

An empty baggie with traces of marijuana. Although unless the school tested it in a lab, it could have been 3-4 other things.

Was repeatedly tardy so he was suspended.

Sprayed some graffiti on a school building.

Some jewelry and a screwdriver were found in his locker. The screwdriver was labeled a burglary tool. Under that definition, my husband and I must be world class burglars based on the number of screwdrivers we own.

Quite the little gang banger we have here. So untypical of a 17 yo in this day and age.

Until the tox screens for TM come back, we don't know if he had any drugs in his system. Maybe he really was just a 17 yo, on his way home from the store, taking the opportunity to talk to his GF away from his house.

Not a single one of us has a clue what happened there that night but you're all over TM like it was his fault he got shot. Maybe he was a little *******, hiding from GZ, waiting to jump him. We don't know now and we won't know until the end end May what happened.

Until then, I'll give TM a pass. I'll give GZ the benefit of the doubt. Two people's lives were changed that night. TM's forever because he's dead. GZ's because he shot a teenager and I don't think that's what he meant to do when he got out of his truck that night. I don't think it's necessary to demonize either one of them.

Since forensics aren't woo, the story they tell will be the line in the sand. Something in the forensics, that we don't know about, has the answers and now we have to sit here until late May to know what those answers are.

I hate it

 

[johnny karate]

I don't think that less than one call a month from someone out specifically looking for possible crime boils down to "a whack job or is simply hyper sensitive seeing suspicion all over the place" do you?

When those calls are coming from someone playing pretend at being a "neighborhood watch captain"? Yes I do.

 

[PhantomWolf]

It is an attack, and purely supposition on your part. If its the only photo the media had, they simply could not have used another photo; it would have been impossible, do you understand?

Did the photo create the impression that TM was younger and smaller than he really was? Yes or No? It's not about if it was don't deliberately. I would note that there are now a lot more images of him in the media, including more recent ones.

 

[johnny karate]

There was no evidence that a crime wasn't being planned, and at least to GZ reason to believe it might be.

Holy crap... what?!?

 

[PhantomWolf]

And your speculation about TM running away? Your acceptance of GZ's testimony as if it were fact in evidence?

Even you stated that there is no reason to disbeive GZ's 911 call. If GZ lied about TM running away during the 911 call, then it's not Murder 2, it's Murder 1, and I seriously can't see any evidence for that. What evidence do you have that GZ was lying when he stated that TM had run?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

An empty bag with traces of marijuana. No proof it was his. Amazing to me how some of y'all are so ready to disbelieve anything that explains TM's behaviour but you believe everything GZ says about that night.

So to recap:

An empty baggie with traces of marijuana. Although unless the school tested it in a lab, it could have been 3-4 other things.

Was repeatedly tardy so he was suspended.

Sprayed some graffiti on a school building.

Some jewelry and a screwdriver were found in his locker. The screwdriver was labeled a burglary tool. Under that definition, my husband and I must be world class burglars based on the number of screwdrivers we own.

Quite the little gang banger we have here. So untypical of a 17 yo in this day and age.

Katie, you didn't call anyone out specific in this thread, but I don't think I've seen anyone here arguing those things are relevant. The only reason I mentioned the marijuana thing was to point out one of the many reasons why a 17-year black male might not look at the police as the one he's going to call when he needs help.

 

[KatieG]

Did they really not have any decent photos that weren't two years old?

The reason it is a nit pick is because the media used the younger smaller TM photos to create a false impression that big huge GZ could not have possibly bee beaten by such a small looking boy. The truth is different to that. This is my big bugbear with the entire thing, the truth is getting hidden by the speculation and the falsehoods that are being spread, the two year old photo is just another of those.



Did you read what I was responding too? The poster doesn't even seem to think that GZ should have been doing Neighbour Watch at all. As far as we know up to the point of confrontation, GZ was just watching. He left his car after TM ran for it and headed behind some houses towards the back gate of the complex. That's not exactly an innocent thing to do. Condemming GZ purely because after seeing the kid make a run for it he got out and followed to keep an eye on him and report his where abouts to the police when they got there, to me, is over the top.

The question I have is what happened after that when the two crossed paths again, that is the far more important period of time as to who was at fault. If TM attacked GZ under any circumstances less than GZ being about to attack him, I'd say GZ should get off. Being followed, even being stopped and asked what you are doing is not a reason to assault someone. If GZ attacked TM first, then he should go down for it. The simple fact of the matter is we don't know what happened and who attacked who.

Really? You were there? You saw what happened? You better get on the phone and let the FL authorities in on this valuable information. Oh wait, you weren't there? So you have no flipping idea whether TM ran or not, that's just what GZ says. Pardon the hell out of me if I doubt his complete version of the story.

Even if TM attacked GZ first, that's not the definition of self defense. Just because someone hits you, you don't get to then shoot them dead. GZ's brother claimed he was down on the ground, with TM covering his mouth and nose and his nose was broken. GZ was swallowing copious amounts of blood! Again, really? How then was GZ able to scream for help for 40+ seconds.

See, the problem is there so much we don't know. There's one side, there's the other side and then there's the truth. I'll wait for the facts.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Although PhantomWolf does seem to think that someone walking in the rain with a hoodie on is very suspicious . I happen to love walking in the rain on occasion and also taking walks in the dark so I must be really suspicious and dangerous in his eyes.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I'm not suggesting the 911 call wasn't genuine. I'm suggesting that Zimmerman's judgment was perhaps impaired. You seem to take it as a fact that Martin was behaving suspiciously. I'd like to know why.

I take it for fact thaT GZ believed he was acting suspiciously and since I don't believe that one 911 call every 5-6 weeks is the sign of someone that finds everything suspicious, plus the reasons he said he was suspicious, added to the conditions at the time. I'd have been suspicious of TM had I been out checking the neighbourhood for possible crime. Anyone walking about in those conditions would be worth a look, someone walking about looking at the houses? That'd really get my attention, if on seeing me watching they took off, heck I'd be positive they were up to no good.

First of all, the low temperature for that day was 53 degrees. And considering that it was only about an hour or so past sunset, I'm not sure how cold it was. I'm guessing not very.

Secondly, the mere

While perhaps in the centre of the US where -13 is common in winter, where I come from 11C is cold! I suspect that people who live in a tropical region like Florida think the same.

act of walking around after dark in the rain is suspicious? Are you serious? A word of advice: Don't go to New York City on a rainy night. You won't like what you see.

We're not talking about downtown Manhatten though, we're talking a quiet gated community. I live pretty close to the Central city here, and people out walking after dark are rare, those out walking in the rain are even rarer. When it's dark cold a raining, most people are indoors unless they absolutely have to go out, and when they do, they'll usually dress in coats and carry umbrellas. If I saw someone walking about my neighbourhood in the rain, wearing concealing clothing like a hoodie rather then a rain jacket, on a night where the temp of the day was just 11 degrees, and looking at the houses, I be pretty suspicious of them.

Again, you're just taking Zimmerman at his word with no other substantiating evidence. You need to consider the idea that maybe Zimmerman is a moron who didn't know what he was talking about.

At the point in time he said it he had no reason to lie about what he was seeing. Of course you who have only read reports on the internet are far more enlightened and able to make perfect determinations about others mental prowess and ability.

He absolutely had a habit of reporting people. That has been documented. Whether or not he followed them, I don't know. But it wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah, 1 call every 5-6 weeks by a guy going out most nights looking for crime. That's just overwhelming evidence of a habit of jumping the gun.