Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[PhantomWolf]

No; but of course they didn't do that did they? They picked one from when he was perhaps 15 or so.

How likely are the family to have had any photo immediately available for the press that didn't show Trayvon well-kempt and good-looking? Nobody keeps unflattering photos of their children on their walls or mantles, come on. This entire nitpick is really stupid.

Did they really not have any decent photos that weren't two years old?

The reason it is a nit pick is because the media used the younger smaller TM photos to create a false impression that big huge GZ could not have possibly bee beaten by such a small looking boy. The truth is different to that. This is my big bugbear with the entire thing, the truth is getting hidden by the speculation and the falsehoods that are being spread, the two year old photo is just another of those.

As long as that's as far as it goes, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. But Zimmerman wasn't happy to leave it at that, was he?

Did you read what I was responding too? The poster doesn't even seem to think that GZ should have been doing Neighbour Watch at all. As far as we know up to the point of confrontation, GZ was just watching. He left his car after TM ran for it and headed behind some houses towards the back gate of the complex. That's not exactly an innocent thing to do. Condemming GZ purely because after seeing the kid make a run for it he got out and followed to keep an eye on him and report his where abouts to the police when they got there, to me, is over the top.

The question I have is what happened after that when the two crossed paths again, that is the far more important period of time as to who was at fault. If TM attacked GZ under any circumstances less than GZ being about to attack him, I'd say GZ should get off. Being followed, even being stopped and asked what you are doing is not a reason to assault someone. If GZ attacked TM first, then he should go down for it. The simple fact of the matter is we don't know what happened and who attacked who.

 

[PhantomWolf]

If only. I guess we can imagine what could have happened. Perhaps, just perhaps others will choose to simply watch and report. Once can dream I suppose.

And GZ did just that, he was watching and reporting, until TM ran for it. At that point he followed to see what TM was up to and stayed on the line to 911 until he was sure he'd lost him. This to me is not a unreasonable action. It is not an unreasonable action to then have a look around to see if the guy is still about either. For me the unreasonable action comes after that, when the fight began, and we just don't have a clue who really started it. Whoever started the fight is the one responsible for the death. If it was TM as GZ says, then GZ should get a walk, having someone following you is no excuse for attacking them, period. If it was GZ that attacked first, then he should head to jail. Simple, but unless we knew what happened, hard to call.

 

[RandFan]

The poster doesn't even seem to think that GZ should have been doing Neighbour Watch at all.

I'm not sure he should have. GZ was not following NW rules. Given that and the fact that an individual who had a reason to be where he was and had not committed any crime and without any basis for anyone to claim there was imminent danger, is dead.

So, based on those facts I sure as hell wouldn't want him watching over my neighborhood. To bad neighborhood watch people can't be screened to the degree that the police are. I kinda doubt Martin would be allowed on the watch.

 

[Mumbles]

You mean the same phone he was talking to his girlfriend on?

it's established that he was using a headset at the time. Want to dial? Well, you can either hope that the voice recognition works, or else you'll need to pull the phone out.

Some people have a strange version of "chased". TM ran for it while GZ was still sitting in his vehicle, at that point GZ had done no more than observe TM. It took at least 6 seconds from the time TM ran for it to the time GZ got out of the car and followed, and since I doubt that TM was standing next to the car when he started, he easily could have had a 40-50m head start on Zimmerman. It's also clear that by the time Zimmerman got around the corner TM had run for, that TM was nowhere in sight. GZ assumed he'd headed for the back gate, since that is where the path led, so it's most likely that is where he headed. How is any of this TM?being "chased"? I wouldn't be surprised if after he got around the corner he didn't even know whether GZ had even left the vehicle.

This makes little sense. There's virtually nowhere for Martin to hide, and then jump out of, that would end with the two of them fighting where they did. Frankly, I think the girlfriend's version is more likely - Martin walked away but didn't run, Zimmerman pursued and found him, Martin sees him and becomes alarmed.

 

[RandFan]

And GZ did just that, he was watching and reporting, until TM ran for it.

A.) Please to demonstrate your claim. B.) Since when is running a crime requiring someone to give chase?

At that point he followed to see what TM was up to and stayed on the line to 911 until he was sure he'd lost him. This to me is not a unreasonable action.

Reckless and dumb. Chasing a suspicious character isn't simply unreasonable, it's dumb. Little good could come of it. Guess what, no good did come of it. If anything I hope fewer people will play cop when no crime or imminent danger is evidenced.

It is not an unreasonable action to then have a look around to see if the guy is still about either. For me the unreasonable action comes after that, when the fight began, and we just don't have a clue who really started it. Whoever started the fight is the one responsible for the death. If it was TM as GZ says, then GZ should get a walk, having someone following you is no excuse for attacking them, period. If it was GZ that attacked first, then he should head to jail. Simple, but unless we knew what happened, hard to call.

• TM had not broken the law.
• There was no evidence of imminent danger.
• Running (not in evidence BTW) isn't a crime.
• The police had been called.

Chasing GZ while armed was not according to neighborhood watch rules and would likely increase the risk of harm to the "suspicious" person and the person giving chase.

 

[Dan O.]

There's two minutes in between when GZ's call ended with 911 and TM's call ended with his girlfriend. The call is said to have ended as soon as the altercation began so I think that is where the timing is coming from. I believe, and I may be misremembering the girlfriend's account, that right before the confrontation, TM said, "he's behind me again."

I too was making that same presumption at first. But how does knocking a headset off terminate the call?

 

[RandFan]

I too was making that same presumption at first. But how does knocking a headset off terminate the call?

I'm guessing that whatever caused the headset to come off could also cause the phone to be knocked out of TM's hand.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

More than a couple of international students in the US have been robbed of their cell phones because they keep them planted in front of their faces, and walk off campus with their heads down, absorbed in the phone and clueless when someone walks up to within inches of them.

As long as they have Blackberrys they are probably safe:

http://gothamist.com/2011/12/09/finicky_morningside_heights_mugger.php

Last month, an armed man stopped a Columbia student in the lobby of a brownstone on West 114th Street, flashed a piece, and demanded the student's iPhone. But when the student presented his pathetic little BlackBerry, the rogue reportedly "snarled" back, "I want iPhones." Another student then appeared in the hallway, and got the same rough treatment. But he too was the sad owner of an undesirable BlackBerry. Sounds like the thief had foolishly tried to rob a building full of publicists, and he fled empty-handed.

About a week later, another mugger (possibly the same guy) tried to rob a female student near the site of the earlier incident. DNAinfo reports that he "slammed her against a fence and threatened to beat her up if she didn't hand over her iPhone." And once again, the smartphone connoisseur was disappointed by the lack of technological discernment on display in the neighborhood—informed that his victim possessed no iPhone, he left with nothing.

 

[johnny karate]

Did they really not have any decent photos that weren't two years old?

This meme needs to die already.

One of the perks of having your son shot to death is you get to pick the photos the media uses when they report the story. That people want to second guess the family and infer some kind of ulterior motive is insane.

 

[johnny karate]

I'm guessing that whatever caused the headset to come off could also cause the phone to be knocked out of TM's hand.

Important tip: When you decide to suddenly lunge and attack the perfectly innocent man who is only following because he's a responsible citizen, make sure to safely stow your phone first.

 

[RandFan]

Did they really not have any decent photos that weren't two years old?

This meme needs to die already.

One of the perks of having your son shot to death is you get to pick the photos the media uses when they report the story. That people want to second guess the family and infer some kind of ulterior motive is insane.

I can't fault either family for wanting to protect the image of their loved ones. Attacking them is kind of perverse. I don't care if they did consciously or sub consciously try and alter the perceptions. We can find the truth without demonizing people in pain. George Zimmerman's and Trayvon Martin's family are suffering.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

As far as the pictures of TM goes, many of the pics I have seen are of what looks like an 11 or 12 year old, I think they are older than just 2 years ago. But I think it's unfair to assume this was some calculated move on the parents part. The parents are divorced and even though everyone in society these days is walking around with smart phones and posting pics of themselves on facebook, a lot of people don't do that, or maybe a camera breaks and they don't have the money to buy a new one, maybe when they got divorced there were less pics taken, whatever.

I seriously doubt the parents were thinking, "gee, I bet we're going to create a nationwide sympathy movement for Trayvon if we give them a pic from when he was 12 years old".

Now if it was the attorney's picking them, I can imagine them doing something like that . Also, the weight thing was absurd from the get go. If anything, if Martin was 100 pounds heavier it meant he was a fat out of shape guy who could have easily gotten his butt kicked by a slim in shape 17-year old kid. So that was just another absurd spin/narrative invented by someone in the media that then they all repeated. I've also read that they got his weight wrong, and the weight they kept quoting was from when he was overweight and 60 pounds heavier or something like that.

 

[johnny karate]

I can't fault either family for wanting to protect the image of their loved ones. Attacking them is kind of perverse. I don't care if they did consciously or sub consciously try and alter the perceptions. We can find the truth without demonizing people in pain. George Zimmerman's and Trayvon Martin's family are suffering.

I agree. And Zimmerman's family could have released a photo of him sooner than they did. But they didn't. So the media went with the only photo available to them at the time: a mugshot. Also, if you don't want the media using your mugshot maybe don't have a mugshot in the first place.

 

[RandFan]

I agree. And Zimmerman's family could have released a photo of him sooner than they did. But they didn't. So the media went with the only photo available to them at the time: a mugshot. Also, if you don't want the media using your mugshot maybe don't have a mugshot in the first place.

Agreed.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I'm not sure he should have. GZ was not following NW rules.

Well since it would seem they didn't have an official NW group, but that he took it on himself to do it, following rules of an organisation you don't belong too could be considered redundant.

Given that and the fact that an individual who had a reason to be where he was and had not committed any crime and without any basis for anyone to claim there was imminent danger, is dead.

This is where you start to lose it. We don't know what had happened at the time of the shooting. If GZ's claim that TM attacked him, then at the least TM would have commited the crimes of Assault and Battery, Aggrevated Assault with intent to injure, and possibly Grevious Bodily Harm depending on the serviety of the injuries GZ sustained. This is not exactly "had not committed any crime". Added to that, if GZ is telling the truth or close to it, and TM went for GZ's gun, then that would certainly create imminent danger.

Since we don't know what happened when the two met up, we can't make that determination. One could point out that assuming TM did attack first, had he not, then when the cops arrived it all would have been sorted and TM would now be at home, as would GZ.

The only circumstances that should lead to GZ being guilty in this is where he started things against TM who had done nothing. Now that is possible, GZ could very well have caught up, grabbed him by the arm and spun him around. In that case, that action would be assault, and had TM attacked him at that point there would be a good case for Manslaughter, though still I doubt for Murder.

So, based on those facts I sure as hell wouldn't want him watching over my neighborhood. To bad neighborhood watch people can't be screened to the degree that the police are. I kinda doubt Martin would be allowed on the watch.

I actually disagree. I wouldn't let him do it with a gun, but then I have rather strong opinions on guns, they have a habit of leading to this sort of situation. I suspect he likely wouldn't have been quite as brave had he not had one.

Had TM not been acting suspiciously and then run for it, GZ wouldn't have even bothered with him. It was the way TM acted that made GZ act as he did. It seems to have been lost in the "lynch Zimmerman" meme, but TM isn't perfectly innocent in this, he made a number of decisions that in my opinion were more catalyst to the event that those GZ did.

 

[johnny karate]

Had TM not been acting suspiciously and then run for it, GZ wouldn't have even bothered with him. It was the way TM acted that made GZ act as he did. It seems to have been lost in the "lynch Zimmerman" meme, but TM isn't perfectly innocent in this, he made a number of decisions that in my opinion were more catalyst to the event that those GZ did.

What reason do you have to believe Martin was acting suspiciously other than Zimmerman claims he was?

Before you answer, consider the fact that Zimmerman also theorized Martin was on drugs. And it turns out his ace detective skills were off the mark on that call.

 

[Checkmite]

Did they really not have any decent photos that weren't two years old?

The reason it is a nit pick is because the media used the younger smaller TM photos to create a false impression that big huge GZ could not have possibly bee beaten by such a small looking boy. The truth is different to that. This is my big bugbear with the entire thing, the truth is getting hidden by the speculation and the falsehoods that are being spread, the two year old photo is just another of those.

No; the media used the two year old photos because that's all they had, because that's what the family had available at the time the media asked for a photo. It's not a "falsehood", it was not "designed to create a false impression". That's nonsense.

Did you read what I was responding too? The poster doesn't even seem to think that GZ should have been doing Neighbour Watch at all. As far as we know up to the point of confrontation, GZ was just watching. He left his car after TM ran for it and headed behind some houses towards the back gate of the complex. That's not exactly an innocent thing to do.

Why not?

It's not like we're talking about an alley here. Between the rows of houses is a large open greenspace with a sidewalk running through it that's actually the most direct and natural route to Trayvon's destination.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Had TM not been acting suspiciously and then run for it, GZ wouldn't have even bothered with him. It was the way TM acted that made GZ act as he did. It seems to have been lost in the "lynch Zimmerman" meme, but TM isn't perfectly innocent in this, he made a number of decisions that in my opinion were more catalyst to the event that those GZ did.

1. One could just as easily say that the way GZ acted caused TM to act the way he did!

2. How do we know TM was acting suspiciously? That's entirely in the eye of the beholder. Have you read the 911 calls of what GZ considered suspicious? I don't trust that TM was acting suspiciously, and I'm certainly not going to trust GZ's interpretation of that.

Quick story. Years ago when I was about 20, one night when I was on some dark streets driving a car kept following me, every time I turned it would turn. Since we were the only cars on the street it was too much of a coincidence, and I started to freak out, I thought they were up to no good and perhaps had bad intentions. So the next stop sight I hit I ran through it at full speed with the intention of getting away from them. next thing I know lights are blinking and I realized it was cops that had been following me. of course the a******** still give me a ticket after confirming I was not a threat even though they caused the event.

Anyhow, I can totally relate to how someone can react to someone following you! At the same time there are so many factors like why the hell didn't TM run?? Alternatively I can easily imagine GZ following YM being enough to provoke TM to attack GZ, especially if he thought he was in danger. BUT I still don't know enough about how that confrontation came down to make a judgment on it, and we may never know other than what GZ tells us.

 

[RandFan]

Well since it would seem they didn't have an official NW group...

Neighborhood Watch is an official group.

National Neighborhood Watch director criticizes Zimmerman's actions in Trayvon Martin shooting

If you don't want to follow the rules of Neighborhood Watch then don't claim you are a Neighborhood Watch coordinator.

We don't know what had happened at the time of the shooting.

I'm not talking about "at the time of the shooting". I'm talking about GZ leaving his vehicle. BTW: I've asked you 3 times now to support your claim about TM running away. Are you going to do that?

...If GZ's claim that TM attacked him, then at the least TM would have commited the crimes of Assault and Battery, Aggrevated Assault with intent to injure, and possibly Grevious Bodily Harm depending on the serviety of the injuries GZ sustained. This is not exactly "had not committed any crime". Added to that, if GZ is telling the truth or close to it, and TM went for GZ's gun, then that would certainly create imminent danger.

Since we don't know what happened when the two met up, we can't make that determination. One could point out that assuming TM did attack first, had he not, then when the cops arrived it all would have been sorted and TM would now be at home, as would GZ.

The only circumstances that should lead to GZ being guilty in this is where he started things against TM who had done nothing. Now that is possible, GZ could very well have caught up, grabbed him by the arm and spun him around. In that case, that action would be assault, and had TM attacked him at that point there would be a good case for Manslaughter, though still I doubt for Murder.

This has nothing to do with my point.

• There was no evidence TM had committed a crime.
• There was no evidence of imminent danger.
• GZ didn't need to chase TM.

Please to focus on my argument and not something else.

Had TM not been acting suspiciously and then run for it...

One more time for you to ignore me, please provide evidence of your claims?

 

[PhantomWolf]

it's established that he was using a headset at the time. Want to dial? Well, you can either hope that the voice recognition works, or else you'll need to pull the phone out.

Most teens I know can text without looking at the phone, dialing 911 should be easy.

This makes little sense. There's virtually nowhere for Martin to hide, and then jump out of, that would end with the two of them fighting where they did.

Where did anyone say that TM hid and lay in wait to jump out and attack GZ?

On a dark night in the rain, I'd suggest that it'd be easy to lose someone when you start with a 50-60m lead. Added to this that GZ stated to the Dispatcher that he believed that TM was heading to the back gate would mean he went the wrong way. What is clear is that he can't have gone directly to the scene of the fight because he was on his phone to 911 longer then it would have taken to get there.

The more likely senario is that TM headed down towards the house he was staying, and then headed back, perhaps to see if the guy was still about, perhaps to give him a peice of his mind. Then either getting either back or nearly back to the t-junction of the paths, he realised it was dumb and started back home, only to have Zimmerman spot him on the way back from the gate. What happened after that is anyone's guess.

I wouldn't be surprised if GZ approached TM and let him know in uncertain terms what he thought of people sneaking about and what the F was he doing there. Whether TM decided to take a swing at that point or tried to walk away would be the clincher for me. If he attacked, then GZ should walk. If TM tried to walk away and GZ grabbed him, he should go down for manslaughter.

Frankly, I think the girlfriend's version is more likely - Martin walked away but didn't run, Zimmerman pursued and found him, Martin sees him and becomes alarmed.

I can't see any reason to disbelieve GZ in the 911 call when he states that TM made a run for it several times. As for the rest of it, the gf wasn't there to know what happened, but her speculation would certainly fit the senario I have given above.