Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[sgtbaker]

I am finding these statement by the mother incredible (not in a bad way), and they make me wonder. We know the prosecutor has been in touch with the family and is allowed to discuss certain things with them. I almost wonder if in her discussions with the family she has told them off the record that it may be very tough for her to get a conviction. That might explain some of the statements by the mother.

BTW, thanks for the link to the affidavit.

I imagine the mother has been hearing a lot of the discussions. That is something that she, I am sure, struggles to prepare herself for.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Bullcrap. The only moral reaction to hearing that Bush and Cheney tortured prisoners is loud and public revulsion, not envisioning a legal framework to make it "out in the open". This actually doesn't surprise me that you're saying this, though.

What doesn't surprise you, precisely? That I thought it worth representing what he actually said with some accuracy as opposed to your snippet that he "advocated torture warrants"?

 

[crimresearch]

You snipped my post for some reason. Please don't do that. Just bold whatever you want to respond to. I wasn't saying it was the standard for PC. It's the standard for the hearing that comes next, which is the preliminary hearing, which is what this affidavit was addressing. They lay out what their case is, and at the next hearing, they will have a very low threshold to meet. Everything taken in "the light most favorable to the prosecution". So if the DA says that's not Zimmerman screaming, the judge has to accept that and rule that as evidence for PC.

Don't tell me how to compose my posts, and don't pretend that I dishonestly edited something significant out.

I snipped it where you changed the subject, because the rest of your post had nothing to do with that part.

 

[triforcharity]

Thanks, I get that, I just would have expected something more convincing,

The job of the capias isn't to convince anyone of anything. It's saying to the sheriff or any LE agency in the state, to arrest this person for this charge, and bring them to a judge. That is ALL it is. Hell, it could have used pictures and it would suffice. It's use isn't to convince anyone of anything. It's a lawful order.

and less flawed.

Flawed? How so.

It just does not seem very lawyerly or even well written to me.

Actually, it follows the outline provided by the state. It doesn't need a bunch of mumbo jombo lawyerly **** in it.

Seriously, I think I could have written something more convincing then that.

Again, it's not intended or designed to convince. It's designed to convey an order.

Maybe it doesn't matter, since it's just a document to get the case moving,

Correct. It doesn't matter what it says. It could drop a few F-Bombs, and it would still be a legal document stating an order.

but when a famed attorney like Alan Dershowiz is mocking it, that says something.

Who? When was this? That's somewhat entertaining to say the least. Do you have a linkey?

It did it's entire purpose, and did it quite well.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Don't tell me how to compose my posts, and don't pretend that I dishonestly edited something significant out.

I snipped it where you changed the subject, because the rest of your post had nothing to do with that part.

A few posts ago he misleadingly condensed Dershowitzs view on torture down to a single sentence but he's upset you didn't fully quote him.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Who? When was this? That's somewhat entertaining to say the least. Do you have a linkey?

It did it's entire purpose, and did it quite well.

. I try to admit pretty quickly when it's obvious to me I'm wrong and as i said the moment I watched Dershowitz as opposed to reading that snippet from him I realized he was engaging in over the top hyperbole. But it still seems like it could have been better written to me .

 

[triforcharity]

. I try to admit pretty quickly when it's obvious to me I'm wrong and as i said the moment I watched Dershowitz as opposed to reading that snippet from him I realized he was engaging in over the top hyperbole. But it still seems like it could have been better written to me .

Gotcha.

It could have had lots of legal mumbo jumbo, sure, but it's not necessary. It strictly conveys an order.

 

[Unabogie]

Don't tell me how to compose my posts, and don't pretend that I dishonestly edited something significant out.

I snipped it where you changed the subject, because the rest of your post had nothing to do with that part.

Well ok, how about you just respect other posters wishes? If not, I don't see the point in talking with you.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Taking up the "reconstruction" at 2:45, he has Zimmerman on Retreat View Circle, the furthest point from his truck, a postion he attained in 30 seconds. Martin is supposed to have nade it to his townhouse, from where he "doubles back" to encounter Zimmerman returning to his truck.

What this Zimminista does not examine is why it took Zimmerman 2 minutes and twenty seconds to cover a distance it would have taken about 10 seconds on the outward journey.

Add Zimmeramn can't arrange a location to meet the cops because he's moving around, it seems more likely that he was just walking around, looking about, than going to his truck.

Maybe Martin thought that was suspicious, didn't know what his deal was, and decided to keep a eye on him, just as a conscientious citizen would.

I believe the presumption is he got to the gate and finished his conversation in that vicinity, perhaps walking around that general area. Heading back to his truck is nebulous, and could have involved a very meandering route.

 

[RandFan]

CNN

Zimmerman in court today.

 

[This is The End]

The thing I'd like to know, and probably never will, is why didn't TM call 911?

17 year old boy on the phone with a girl he probably likes? Running home or calling 911 would maybe make him appear week to his girl in his eyes. So he stayed on the phone with her right up until the unknown began.

 

[Mumbles]

17 year old boy on the phone with a girl he probably likes? Running home or calling 911 would maybe make him appear week to his girl in his eyes. So he stayed on the phone with her right up until the unknown began.

Calling 911 when some weird dude is following you also means exposing your cell phone - which is a great object to be robbed of. It's also possible that he didn't call 911, because he's 17, and people of that age often just don't call 911 when they're being chased. For that matter, a lot of older people won't call 911 in that sort of situation.

 

[crimresearch]

Calling 911 when some weird dude is following you also means exposing your cell phone - which is a great object to be robbed of. It's also possible that he didn't call 911, because he's 17, and people of that age often just don't call 911 when they're being chased. For that matter, a lot of older people won't call 911 in that sort of situation.

More than a couple of international students in the US have been robbed of their cell phones because they keep them planted in front of their faces, and walk off campus with their heads down, absorbed in the phone and clueless when someone walks up to within inches of them.

 

[SezMe]

Zimmerman in court today.

He sure doesn't look like a tug boat.

 

[SezMe]

Actually, we have more info than you admit. We know GZ went past the clubhouse, and past the mailboxes. We know where TM destination was. And we can reasonably infer, for the purposes of discussion, a lot more.

That's fine. Just don't confuse your inferences with known facts.

 

[Travis]

I do not beleive Zimmerman set out to kill but I am willing to beleive he let his prejudices over ride his common sense, if he had jsut kept an eye on the the boy instead of getting out, following then creating a confrontation it is likley he woulld still be running the neighbourhood watch, but it beggers the question, do they vet these neighbourhood watch people before allowing them to operate?

Depends on the neighborhood. Some places really do have crime and they tend to attract people that are legitimately concerned about safety. These places are actually few and far between. Most neighborhood watch groups are in places that have only heard of crime as an abstraction. These places just get bullies that want to harass kids they don't like.

But in neither place do they regularly check out the volunteers.

I will readily admit I had a pretty low opinion of Zimmerman the second I heard he was in a neighborhood watch program.

It was supplied by the Martin's family's public relations representative and undated on purpose and worked exactly as intended. Well managed PR really.

So what? If your kid had just been gunned down and the media wants a photo are you just going to turn over all your photos or are you going to pick out one you think they looked nice in?

My cycnism is born from experience.

Cynicism usually is. Otherwise it's just a symptom of an unwell mind.

I could give a long series of related incidents to the propaganda game we are seeing now. Do you honestly not recall seeing something like this in the media before? I was at one of the colleges where Mumia Abu Jamal gave multiple graduation commencement speeches. Do you know his story at all?

I seem to remember the Hippies in college making a huge fuss about trying to release him for reasons that I never understood.

Maybe the parents are in an emotionally complex situation of not wanting to believe that their son was more of a thug then they realized . . . wouldn't that set a process in motion where they actually do try to destroy an innocent man?

So now TM is a thug? Where does this come from?

Look if Zimmerman had been doing what he should have been doing--sitting in his house gorging himself while watching TV--instead of out in the rain chasing down phantom criminals committing phantom crimes none of this would have ever happened.

Maybe you should back off defending the lynch mob mentality.

The what?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Calling 911 when some weird dude is following you also means exposing your cell phone - which is a great object to be robbed of.

You mean the same phone he was talking to his girlfriend on?

It's also possible that he didn't call 911, because he's 17, and people of that age often just don't call 911 when they're being chased. For that matter, a lot of older people won't call 911 in that sort of situation.

Some people have a strange version of "chased". TM ran for it while GZ was still sitting in his vehicle, at that point GZ had done no more than observe TM. It took at least 6 seconds from the time TM ran for it to the time GZ got out of the car and followed, and since I doubt that TM was standing next to the car when he started, he easily could have had a 40-50m head start on Zimmerman. It's also clear that by the time Zimmerman got around the corner TM had run for, that TM was nowhere in sight. GZ assumed he'd headed for the back gate, since that is where the path led, so it's most likely that is where he headed. How is any of this TM?being "chased"? I wouldn't be surprised if after he got around the corner he didn't even know whether GZ had even left the vehicle.

 

[PhantomWolf]

So what? If your kid had just been gunned down and the media wants a photo are you just going to turn over all your photos or are you going to pick out one you think they looked nice in?

If my son was 17, I certainly wouldn't pick one from when he was 12.

Look if Zimmerman had been doing what he should have been doing--sitting in his house gorging himself while watching TV--instead of out in the rain chasing down phantom criminals committing phantom crimes none of this would have ever happened.

So in your opinion actively protecting your neighbours by looking for anyone that might be up to no good and then ringing the cops to report it is a bad thing?

 

[Checkmite]

If my son was 17, I certainly wouldn't pick one from when he was 12.

No; but of course they didn't do that did they? They picked one from when he was perhaps 15 or so.

How likely are the family to have had any photo immediately available for the press that didn't show Trayvon well-kempt and good-looking? Nobody keeps unflattering photos of their children on their walls or mantles, come on. This entire nitpick is really stupid.

So in your opinion actively protecting your neighbours by looking for anyone that might be up to no good and then ringing the cops to report it is a bad thing?

As long as that's as far as it goes, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. But Zimmerman wasn't happy to leave it at that, was he?

 

[RandFan]

...protecting your neighbours by looking for anyone that might be up to no good and then ringing the cops to report it is a bad thing?

If only. I guess we can imagine what could have happened. Perhaps, just perhaps others will choose to simply watch and report. One can dream I suppose.