The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

DOC said:
How can a thousand year reign come to pass soon, so there must be another explanation of the come to pass shortly verse. I'll give some other responses to this issue as time permits.
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Soon means soon Doc, at least for the rest of humanity. Not for you though.
 
DOC said:
How can a thousand year reign come to pass soon, so there must be another explanation of the come to pass shortly verse. I'll give some other responses to this issue as time permits.
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I think I'm beginning to understand what this is all about.

DOC, "come to pass" doesn't mean "proceed from start to finish". "Pass" itself might mean that: in the sense of "elapse"; but "come to pass" simply means "happen". A thousand year reign couldn't "pass" tomorrow, or "shortly", but it could come to pass - i.e. start to happen - tomorrow, or as shortly as the next five minutes for that matter. Google the expression "come to pass" and you will confirm the truth of this.

So there is only one explanation of the come to pass shortly verse: it is a false prophecy, like the stars falling out of the sky image in Revelation. That won't happen because stars are much bigger than the earth, and not sparkly things affixed to a "firmament" not far above our heads, as John of Patmos supposed.
 
Craig B said:
I think I'm beginning to understand what this is all about.

DOC, "come to pass" doesn't mean "proceed from start to finish". "Pass" itself might mean that: in the sense of "elapse"; but "come to pass" simply means "happen". A thousand year reign couldn't "pass" tomorrow, or "shortly", but it could come to pass - i.e. start to happen - tomorrow, or as shortly as the next five minutes for that matter. Google the expression "come to pass" and you will confirm the truth of this.

So there is only one explanation of the come to pass shortly verse: it is a false prophecy, like the stars falling out of the sky image in Revelation. That won't happen because stars are much bigger than the earth, and not sparkly things affixed to a "firmament" not far above our heads, as John of Patmos supposed.
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I wonder which drugs John was on at the time.
 
DOC said:
How can a thousand year reign come to pass soon, so there must be another explanation of the come to pass shortly verse. I'll give some other responses to this issue as time permits.
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Of course, the thousand year reign comes at the end of all the horrors predicted in Revelation; after the four horsemen of the apocalypse have gone out to wreak destruction, after the star Wormwood has fallen into the sea, after most of the human race has been annihilated, and so on. It also takes place after the seven years of tribulation, the reign of the Beast, people being forced to take the mark of the Beast, etc.

Thus, that which must take place "soon" doesn't conflict with the millennial kingdom. The setting up of that kingdom would have been only seven years or so down the road from when John of Patmos penned his revelation.

This fits with the prediction Jesus supposedly gave in the "Little Apocalypse," also called the "Olivet Discourse" (Mark 13:30):

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things be done.

"All these things" include the sun and moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky, the Son of man appearing in the clouds and the angels gathering in the elect (Mk. 13:24 - 27). The usual dodge Christian apologists resort to this is brought up is to assert that "generation" (Gr. genaea) actually should be read as "people" (Gr. genos). Thus, this people," i.e. the Jews, will not pass away until these things happen. In other words, the only way to make the Bible prophecy "true" is to make the Bible not say what it actually says.
 
TimCallahan said:
Of course, the thousand year reign comes at the end of all the horrors predicted in Revelation; after the four horsemen of the apocalypse have gone out to wreak destruction, after the star Wormwood has fallen into the sea, after most of the human race has been annihilated, and so on. It also takes place after the seven years of tribulation, the reign of the Beast, people being forced to take the mark of the Beast, etc.

Thus, that which must take place "soon" doesn't conflict with the millennial kingdom. The setting up of that kingdom would have been only seven years or so down the road from when John of Patmos penned his revelation.

This fits with the prediction Jesus supposedly gave in the "Little Apocalypse," also called the "Olivet Discourse" (Mark 13:30):

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things be done.

"All these things" include the sun and moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky, the Son of man appearing in the clouds and the angels gathering in the elect (Mk. 13:24 - 27). The usual dodge Christian apologists resort to this is brought up is to assert that "generation" (Gr. genaea) actually should be read as "people" (Gr. genos). Thus, this people," i.e. the Jews, will not pass away until these things happen. In other words, the only way to make the Bible prophecy "true" is to make the Bible not say what it actually says.
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exegesis = torturing word till they say what you want them to say.
 
''And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.''-Revelation

People are still dying Doc. When can we expect death to flee from us?.
 
joobz said:
By starting soon.
It's had 2000 years to start,
that's not soon.
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It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about.

Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel. There is an implication there that the end will not happen until every person alive has at least had a chance to hear the gospel.

And the official recognized bible of the church was not determined until 398 A.D. at the Council of Carthage by hundreds of bishops. This is about 300 years after John wrote Revelation. Those bishops could have simply dropped Revelation from the bible if they were concerned about the "come to pass shortly" wording written 300 years earlier. They must have not been that concerned because the many bishops chose to include Revelation as part of the official cannon of the Church.
 
DOC said:
It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about.

Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel. There is an implication there that the end will not happen until every person alive has at least had a chance to hear the gospel.

And the official recognized bible of the church was not determined until 398 A.D. at the Council of Carthage by hundreds of bishops. This is about 300 years after John wrote Revelation. Those bishops could have simply dropped Revelation from the bible if they were concerned about the "come to pass shortly" wording written 300 years earlier. They must have not been that concerned because the many bishops chose to include Revelation as part of the official cannon of the Church.
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Start soon and come to pass soon are the same thing. The word soon does not change its meaning when you put in front of other words. You lose again. No fulfilled bible prophecies. So seven billion people have to hear the gospel first? What a pathetic excuse.
 
DOC said:
It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon.
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That's what that means.

"He didn't say six. he said Half a dozen!"


Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel.
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What does this have to do with revelation?

DOC said:
And the official recognized bible of the church was not determined until 398 A.D. at the Council of Carthage by hundreds of bishops. This is about 300 years after John wrote Revelation.
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yup. It didn't happen soon. Hence failed prophecy.

DOC said:
Those bishops could have simply dropped Revelation from the bible if they were concerned about the "come to pass shortly" wording written 300 years earlier. They must have not been that concerned because the many bishops chose to include Revelation as part of the official cannon of the Church.
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They had their own motivations for it.
I'm interested in reading Pagel's book to find out more about it.
 
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Doc, can you provide us with glossary of the alternative meanings that you give to words? We know what soon means but you appear to have another definition.
 
I've made a start on Doc's glossary.

Anytime in the next few thousand years= soon
Total failure= fulfilled bible prophecy
Never= come to pass
 
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DOC said:
You still haven't explained what you exactly mean by "it".
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The thousand year reign Doc. You can find the meaning of the word soon in any dictionary.

''The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John''

Soon take place Doc, not in a few thousand years. A failed prophecy. Why are you incapable of understanding that?
 
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