The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[tsig]

I've finally figured out the thread title. He meant the incredible odds against any fulfilled prophesies.

 

[carlitos]

I've looked at the first 20 points in post 1760 if you're interested.

So you did. Thanks. I enjoyed your humorous take.

 

[abaddon]

Continuing on the 21 is rather odd.
21. To begin in Galilee- Isa 9:1-2, Mt 4:12-17

For starters, Mt 4:12-17 is

4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
4:13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
4:15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

While Zabulon shares a border with Naphtali, it has no coast, nor any contact with the sea of Galilee. Even worse, it's border is about 40km from Capernaum, so saying "in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim" is somewhat of a stretch.

The Isaiah bit is:

9:1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.
9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

The her referred to is not Zabulon, nor Naphtali, but the prophetess that was getting in on in chapter 8. But we know how DOC is with pronouns.

ETA: An even odder, claim is that "the havens of the sea" means the Dutch are descended from the tribe of Zabulon.

 

[abaddon]

22. Ministry of Miracles- Isa 35:5-6,
Mt 9:35;11:4

35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

For starters, Mt 11:4 seems to be irrelevant.

Mt 9:35 is a blatant attempt to marry Isaiah with Jebus, and there is no evidence it ever happened. It is another case of the babble saying it must be true because it says so.

 

[abaddon]

23. Teacher of parables- Ps 78:1-4,
Mt 13:34-35

13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

That's not what Ps 78:1-4 actually says.

78:1 Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
78:3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
78:4 We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.

It's a misquote.
"I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world." versus "We will not hide them from their children"

 

[abaddon]

24. He was to enter the temple- Mal 3:1,
Mt 21:10-12

3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

This refers specifically to Elijah, not John the Baptist. The babble bashers omit this:

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

Yup Elijah, and the end of the world. Guess what didn't happen.

21:10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

No evidence, just a claim.
And John explicitly is quoted as stating that he was not Elijah:

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Also the world didn't end.

 

[abaddon]

25. Enter Jerusalem on donkey-
Zech 9:9, Mt 21:1-7

The claim:

21:1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
21:3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
21:6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,
21:7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.

Fulfils:

9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Conveniently leaving out the following:

9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
9:12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

How convenient, 9:9 is good, but let's ignore 9:10-13.
Not to mention that
A. there is no evidence for such an event outside the babble, and
B. Even if it actually happened it could have easily been an attempt to gain holey babble endorsement of a common or garden rebel.

 

[abaddon]

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Sorry, but this is not a prophecy of any sort. And to make matters worse it is contradicted in Romans 9:33. Quelle surprise.

Ps 118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

There is no connection between this and the previous quote, other than stone, which is kind of common, don't ya think?

1 Pt 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Yup, let's just take a square peg and bludgeon it into a round hole.

 

[abaddon]

27. Light to Gentiles- Isa 49:6, Acts 13:46-48 The day Jesus was
crucified

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

A woolly "prediction" like that could be manipulated to fit anything.
It's not really a prophecy at all.

13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Equivalent to
"taking my ball home from the schoolyard."

13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Yay, let's just hijack the OT for our own ends.

13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Yay, the goatherders were saved from hell and damnation.
All claim, no evidence, not even an actual prophecy.

Well, almost half way through with nothing much to show for the prophecies.

Someone else can do the next section, cos I am bored with it at this stage.

 

[DOC]

Nor is my question about you personal beliefs or opinions. Rather, it is about whether the Book of Jonah is homiletic fiction or historical fact. You have asserted the latter. That being the case, the following is of great importance:

1) We have the remains of Nineveh. The city was about 5 kilometers at its widest dimension...

Again no source, but even if true then I assume you don't believe big cities grow and there would be some people of Nineveh who chose to live outside any city walls that might exist such as farmers, shepherds, vineyard growers, and other people who just choose to live outside any city walls but still consider themselves part of Nineveh. And building materials are probably scarce in that arid climate so it is logical to assume any abandoned dwelling wouldn't last long especially over the thousands of years of wars and desert winds. And that would apply to Egypt too.

 

[joobz]

Again no source, but even if true then I assume you don't believe big cities grow and there would be some people of Nineveh who chose to live outside any city walls that might exist such as farmers, shepherds, vineyard growers, and other people who just choose to live outside any city walls but still consider themselves part of Nineveh. And building materials are probably scarce in that arid climate so it is logical to assume any abandoned dwelling wouldn't last long especially over the thousands of years of wars and desert winds. And that would apply to Egypt too.

Again, another no source post.


ETA:
DOC, There have been a number of posts now which have addressed that google list.
It is clear, as was clear when you first presented it, that it is underwhelming nonsense.
As it stands, you have YET to present even one single fulfilled prophecy.

 

[joobz]

I can't quite figure out if you made a funny or a typo. Either way, I like it very much.

It was an accident. But don't tell my post docs. They would likely not appreciate the Freudian slip.

 

[joobz]

Update with new page
DOC has successfully demonstrated a fullfilled biblical prophecy: 1
DOC

DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled. 41
Joobz
Foster Zygote
jond
abaddon
mashuna
zooterkin
Mojo
Lucian
Amazer
Helen
Filippo Lippi
Hokulele
RoboTimbo
FastEddieB
joseph8th
kmortis
x
RobDegraves
Elizabeth I
Lukraak_Sisser
Mudcat
ddt
Mister Agenda* Whose opinion DOC labeled as Unbiased
catsmate
tsig
Leumas
Brainache
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
pakeha
dafydd
TimCallahan
Wildy
Lrrr
Cantab
Sezme
AdMan
Alice Shortcake
Sun Countess
Agatha

Doc has successfullly demonstrated that the OT is largely made up of incomprehensible gibberish: 13
Lucian
Helen
kmortis
ddt
Leumas
Mudcat
Welshdean
Rincewind
Multivac
Brainache
pakeha
Cantab
Sezme

So you don't believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
No:19
zooterkin
joobz
kerikiwi
pakeha
Mojo
dafydd
Lucian
ddt
welshdean
Agatha
Elizabeth I
Craig B
catsmate1
Helen
carlitos
abaddon
Robotimbo
Mudcat
Welshdean

So you don't believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true?
Yes:0

 

[Marduk]

Again no source, but even if true then I assume you don't believe big cities grow and there would be some people of Nineveh who chose to live outside any city walls that might exist such as farmers, sheppards, vineyard growers, and other people who just choose to live outside any city walls but still consider themselves part of Nineveh. And building materials are probably scarce in that arid climate so it is logical to assume any abandoned dwelling wouldn't last long especially over the thousands of years of wars and desert winds. And that would apply to Egypt too.

theres a wonderful science called Archaeology Doc
heard of it ?

ok lets try another approach
Jonah who is deposited on the shore of the Mediteranean by the "great fish" makes it to Nineveh in 24 hrs
Nineveh is 390 miles from the coast at its shortest point
so Jonah was averaging 16 miles an hour on foot which is twice the average human speed over that kind of distance.

you don't need bs excuses here if you can't do the simple math don't bother with a reply

 

[TimCallahan]

Again no source, but even if true then I assume you don't believe big cities grow and there would be some people of Nineveh who chose to live outside any city walls that might exist such as farmers, shepherds, vineyard growers, and other people who just choose to live outside any city walls but still consider themselves part of Nineveh. And building materials are probably scarce in that arid climate so it is logical to assume any abandoned dwelling wouldn't last long especially over the thousands of years of wars and desert winds. And that would apply to Egypt too.

Actually, I DID give the source as a link in post #1761. Here it is again. And again, as I told you in that post, you need to scroll down a bit to find the map of the city. And again, the city is only about 1/14 the size it should be according to the Book of Jonah. To accept your bit of special pleading that the city was actually 14 times greater in width than the walled portion, we would have to believe thatall this dense population surrounded the walled city, yet no trace of it survived, though the walled city did. Whether you like it or not, you have to go with the physical evidence.

By the way, I would think it would be a particularly egregious sin for a Christian to lie on Easter Sunday.

 

[zooterkin]

theres a wonderful science called Archaeology Doc
heard of it ?

ok lets try another approach
Jonah who is deposited on the shore of the Mediteranean by the "great fish" makes it to Nineveh in 24 hrs
Nineveh is 390 miles from the coast at its shortest point
so Jonah was averaging 16 miles an hour on foot which is twice the average human speed over that kind of distance.

Only twice? You're being too generous! Average walking speed is around 4mph, which most people couldn't keep up without stopping for 24 hours. Even for something like a 100 mile endurance run, which participants train extensively for, 24 hours is regarded as a good time, so 4 days of that would be a superhuman effort. (Even King Harold's army took 4 days to travel the 185 miles to Stamford Bridge.)

 

[Craig B]

Only twice? You're being too generous! Average walking speed is around 4mph, which most people couldn't keep up without stopping for 24 hours. Even for something like a 100 mile endurance run, which participants train extensively for, 24 hours is regarded as a good time, so 4 days of that would be a superhuman effort. (Even King Harold's army took 4 days to travel the 185 miles to Stamford Bridge.)

Harold's army achieved an astonishing feat, if so. Much better than more recent armies.

From the Manual for Noncommissioned Officers and Privates of Infantry in the Army of the United States, Washington, Government Printing Office, 1918: "The rate of march depends greatly upon the condition of the roads and weather, but the average rate for infantry is 2 1/2 miles per hour. This allows for a rest of 10 minutes each hour. The total distance marched in a day depends not only on the rate of march, but upon the size of the command, large commands covering about 10 miles per day, while small commands easily cover double that distance."

So 20 miles a day max.

 

[zooterkin]

Harold's army achieved an astonishing feat, if so. Much better than more recent armies. So 20 miles a day max.

It was an astonishing feat, and I think pretty well documented, and at the end of it they fought and beat the invaders. A bit more digging, however, shows that the soldiers would probably all have been mounted for the journey (though they fought on foot); I was a bit misled by the fact that it's often described as a march. However, this just goes to show even more strongly the impossibility of 390 miles in a day, or even a week.

 

[Mojo]

Someone else can do the next section, cos I am bored with it at this stage.

In any case, the whole lot can amount to nothing beyond "the Bible is true bacause the Bible says it is true..."

 

[Craig B]

It was an astonishing feat, and I think pretty well documented, and at the end of it they fought and beat the invaders. A bit more digging, however, shows that the soldiers would probably all have been mounted for the journey (though they fought on foot); I was a bit misled by the fact that it's often described as a march. However, this just goes to show even more strongly the impossibility of 390 miles in a day, or even a week.

More recently, cavalry forces on the march seem to have been reckoned to travel twice as far in a day as infantry units. They could achieve much higher speeds on forced marches, at the cost of the condition of the horses, of course. As Harold's men fought on foot, they might well have been willing to risk this.

But we can't assume Jonah rode a horse in his trip through Nineveh! So the city must (according to the Biblical account) have been about 60 miles across, and not the much larger distance suggested by King Harold's expedition.