Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[R.A.F.]

You say I'm being paid by the government to dispute Apollo hoax theories, which I know to be true. Present your evidence for that accusation or withdraw it.

You need to do one or the other...or tell us why you can't.


It very badly reflects on your character when you find it impossible to do one or the other.

 

[dafydd]

I presented an issue for you people to address, but so far, you've just tap danced around and avoided it.

I want you all to explain how you think the flag would move in atmosphere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymwE1sNm82Y

Your positions are that it's not in atmosphere, so please explain how it would move if it were in atmosphere.
You seem to be checkmated by this issue. Objective truth-seekers modify their opinions when they see their positions don't add up. They don't tap dance around and hope the issue will go away.

I suppose you'd just tap dance around on the moon thread at Spurstalk too though.

Buy a flagpole and a flag, hoist the flag and observe it. What about my point about NASA being stupid enough to release footage that proves it was all faked? Do you really think that NASA were as dumb as CT nuts?

 

[R.A.F.]

You have failed on all counts.

Malarky...you have failed to support with any evidence that the landings were faked...since the Apollo missions are historical FACT, you are the "failed one" here.

Nothing you have said has been considered credible...as evidenced by the lopsided poll.

 

[nomuse]

I've never seen a case where an astronaut trotted by a flag in the same manner. Please link to one.

Oh, look; magic conditionals. Sorry, not buying into it. You don't get to reject every single case of movement near a flag because it doesn't appear identical.

This isn't a once-in-a-million happening. If it was, it wouldn't be the basis of your argument, would it? The framework of your argument requires that the flag react to activity around it that would tend to generate air movement. If you can't find a single other case of the flag moving when someone merely passes by, then your assumptions about the underlying behavior are probably wrong.

It would take a bigger wind that the one created by the astronaut to make it billow; he was at a forty five degree angle to the flag when he trotted by it. He would have to trot by parallel to it at a slightly greater speed to make it billow.

Wrong. Billowing is the natural motion of fabric in atmosphere. It has to do with being a flexible surface with air resistance that is fastened at one or more edges. Force applied by air movement to a panel of fabric that is attached at one edge will not move the entire assembly as a unit; it will cause the fabric to bell out until the force necessary to move the support is small than the force necessary to bend the fabric.

This is how we recognize fabric. This is how fabric in motion looks different from steel plate in motion. This is what animators have been doing for years. What painters have been achieving in snapshot. What software render packages are just now achieving efficiently enough for real-time rendering. There are extensive mathematical descriptions of how cloth moves in air.

 

[R.A.F.]

Do you really think that NASA were as dumb as CT nuts?

Well, he sure seems to think that the majority of posters here are "that dumb". He has to think that or his hoax world would collapse around him.

 

[Erock]

I simply cannot be bothered to type replies to Fatfreddy88. It is like he has some sort of script he uses to reply to posts, and will never ever accept logic, simple explanations or opposing and very much more informed opinions.

1/ There are 3 seperate examples of the path of the astronaut past the flag, all 3 of them, including Jarrah White suggest that the astronaut was close enough to brush it with his arm. He will NEVER acknowledge that even Jarrah White is correct here. He will not even acknowledge that it is even plausible. He says he disagrees, but offers no analysis at all to back this up.

2/ There is a small movement prior to the astronaut passing by the flag on the Moon, but it starts between 5 to 4 feet away. Fatfreddy88 will NEVER respond to this point and explain how air moves that far in front of something. It is simply wrong beyond words to suggest this happens, there is no law of physics to cover it.

3/ He has been shown example videos where Jarrah White's flag billows, where it doesn't even flicker until he is really close/level with it, and where Jarrah White's flag stops in rapid time. He will NEVER acknowledge these points.

4/ He has been shown close up videos of the initial movement where the flag pole clearly moves. He flat out denies this totally obvious movement. He will NEVER change his mind or acknowledge this.

5/ He shows us 2 videos where some guy wafting a book also causes the flag to billow. The Apollo 15 flag doesn't billow. He will NEVER acknowledge this.

6/ It is a perfectly reasonable suggestion to say that footsteps on the Moon will cause vibration. He will NEVER acknowledge that.


As for "Michael Collins' Jacket" - search youtube with that phrase and watch his argument(I use the term very loosely) blown out of the water.

The debating hall have rejected your entry on the grounds of unsupported, uninformed bare assertion. People inside are sniggering at you.

 

[Andy_Ross]

BAUT only hold up posts from new mwmbers as a Spam Filter. Until a fairly low (but unspecified) number of posts have been made they have to be approved by a Mod.
ALl the rules for posting to BAUT are laid out in the rules. People get banned for being abusive and not supporting their ideas if they relate to Against the Mainstream or Conspiracy subjects.
All the posts you made to BAUT are available for anyone to see and so is the reason for any banning.

 

[mercatormac]

Why doesn't some lurker go and register at Baut and try to post the info that's in the link that's at the bottome of this post?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8033032&postcount=1

I'll bet he or she won't succeed in getting on the forum where people can see it.

The info in the link at the bottom of that post consists of, at my count, a mere 95 links in the inimitable FatFreddy88 style.

Perhaps Dave you might like to explain how I can post a FF88 message containing FF88 links in the FF88 style without them thinking that I am a sock puppet of FatFreddy88?
And is it really surprising that BAUT would then remove this message as per their rules?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

If you people want to play it down and pretend it doesn't mean anything, go ahead; I don't think many of the viewers are fooled.

Hi. I'm a viewer, pleased to meetcha.

Your willful, total ignorance on this subject, coupled with a world-class level of arrogance is 17-car-pile-up awesome to behold.

Perhaps, maybe, possibly, might have, could be you will change course and learn something about respect, consideration, evidence, burden of proof, and other matters related to this subject. Perhaps, maybe, possibly not.

What-ev. It's your funeral.

 

[sts60]

Bump for FatFreddy88/David C/rocky.

...What he has done is try to say that every expert who disagrees with him is lying. I called him on it, and he finally conceded the point by failing to provide any evidence for his claim. So I've moved on, and will ignore any attempts by him to try to resurrect that particular accusation - unless he actually offers some evidence to back it up.

Speaking of which, FatFreddy88, why do you think someone like me, with quite a bit of relevant expertise, disagrees with someone like you, with no relevant expertise? What does that tell you, that I both understand space flight and I believe Apollo really happened? Put aside your reflexive denial for a minute and think.

Please, David C, this is important. Really try to let set aside your prejudices for a minute and think. Can you do that?

 

[dafydd]

Mitchell and Webb nailed the Moon hoax nonsense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6MOnehCOUw

 

[FatFreddy88]

Wrong. Billowing is the natural motion of fabric in atmosphere. It has to do with being a flexible surface with air resistance that is fastened at one or more edges. Force applied by air movement to a panel of fabric that is attached at one edge will not move the entire assembly as a unit; it will cause the fabric to bell out until the force necessary to move the support is small than the force necessary to bend the fabric.

This is how we recognize fabric. This is how fabric in motion looks different from steel plate in motion. This is what animators have been doing for years. What painters have been achieving in snapshot. What software render packages are just now achieving efficiently enough for real-time rendering. There are extensive mathematical descriptions of how cloth moves in air.

This is true if the breeze is strong enough to make it billow. In this clip of the flag filmed in a studio the breeze is simply not strong enough to make it billow. It's only strong enough to make it move slightly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymwE1sNm82Y
(2:36 timemark)

In this clip Jarrah runs by the flag a little faster and at a different angle than that of the Apollo astronaut.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr76qSQ9ZQQ
(8:30 time mark)

The breeze that reaches the flag is strong enough to make it billow slightly. That's why Jarrah's flag billows a little and the Apollo flag doesn't. Any third-grader could see this.

You can pretend all you want. You are checkmated by this flag anomaly; it's really amusing how you people have the attitude that you're winning the debate the whole time you're losing.

 

[realpaladin]

FF88, did you try it out yet?

 

[Garrison]

This is true if the breeze is strong enough to make it billow. In this clip of the flag filmed in a studio the breeze is simply not strong enough to make it billow. It's only strong enough to make it move slightly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymwE1sNm82Y
(2:36 timemark)

In this clip Jarrah runs by the flag a little faster and at a different angle than that of the Apollo astronaut.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr76qSQ9ZQQ
(8:30 time mark)

The breeze that reaches the flag is strong enough to make it billow slightly. That's why Jarrah's flag billows a little and the Apollo flag doesn't. Any third-grader could see this.

Well may be a really gullible third grader...

You can pretend all you want. You are checkmated by this flag anomaly; it's really amusing how you people have the attitude that you're winning the debate the whole time you're losing.

Really? I just checked and its 254-1 in favour of Apollo being real on the poll so once again the empirical evidence contradicts you. You've checkmated no one, you're cherry picking and misrepresentation are getting you nowhere fast.

 

[sts60]

Rocky/FF88, did you miss my appeal to you to set aside your religious, knee-jerk denialism and think for a moment? Why does a practicing space engineer like me think you, a layman, is wrong about Apollo? And why do 250 individuals in the poll - real people - think you're wrong?

 

[R.A.F.]

In this clip Jarrah...

Listen VERY carefully, fred...NO ONE GIVES A DAMN WHAT THAT IGNORANT ASS JARRAH HAS TO SAY.


Do you understand, or should we conduct another poll showing you how NO ONE CARES what Jarrah says???????


If Jarrah hasn't the "courage" to debate, here, then there is no reason for you to be his "parrot"...in other words, every time you reference Jarrah, you will be called what you are....an ignorant puppet.


Do you understand???

 

[R.A.F.]

You can pretend all you want...snip...it's really amusing how you people have the attitude that you're winning the debate the whole time you're losing.

Couldn't have said it better myself....to maintain your illusion, all the posters who disagree with you, are either lying or socks. You can't, for even a minute concede that you might be wrong.

Talk about being "closed-minded".


Why can't you answer STS60's query?? What are you afraid of???

 

[abaddon]

Couldn't have said it better myself....to maintain your illusion, all the posters who disagree with you, are either lying or socks. You can't, for even a minute concede that you might be wrong.

Talk about being "closed-minded".


Why can't you answer STS60's query?? What are you afraid of???

Failure.

After investing years to no avail, he can't bear the thought. That's my guess.

 

[R.A.F.]

Rocky/FF88, did you miss my appeal to you to set aside your religious, knee-jerk denialism and think for a moment? Why does a practicing space engineer like me think you, a layman, is wrong about Apollo? And why do 250 individuals in the poll - real people - think you're wrong?

With all due apologies to sts60, Lets see if I can answer ala freddy...



First, you are not a space engineer.

Second, you are lying when you say that Apollo was real, and you know it.

Third, I am not wrong about Apollo.

Forth, people agree with me....the poll was faked..."stuffed" with socks....


How'd I do, Freddy?....now you don't even have to post as I have "covered" it for ya.

Take the afternoon off...

 

[FatFreddy88]

Why can't you answer STS60's query?? What are you afraid of???

I did answer. He didn't like the answer so he takes the attitude that I didn't answer. Here's the post where I answered him.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8172784&postcount=8086

I have to be careful what I say on this forum but this post will give you a clue to what I think about that poll.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8177686&postcount=8160

I'd like to say it directly, but I'd risk getting banned.

Talk about being "closed-minded".

Nobody has given a serious rebuttal to post #8172. You all are just tap dancing around. Tell us why you disagree with what I said about why the Apollo flag didn't billow. Your behavior here would get you laughed out of the debating hall.