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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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I agree, I do not focus on the legal niceties because of some obsession, but because they will matter not my opinion. The fact that I feel GZ should have stayed in the car and just waited for the police has no bearing on what a judge will instruct the jury.

The fact that I agree, had GZ stayed in his car Trayvon would not have been shot and therefore he is culpable, matters not one whit. What matters is the law, the legal precedents and what happens in a potential trial.

I have been followed and approached by people who were acting crazy and/or suspicious, I felt very threatened in those situations. I feel that Trayvon probably also felt threatened.

That and $3.50 will buy you a fancy coffee to take to court. I know what I feel, however in these cases the evidence, the law, the legal precedents and the trial are what matter.

Legal precedents in Florida will have a major sway in any potential trials, what evidence is permitted and what lines of argument are presented will matter even more, the jury instructions will matter the most.

I think we're in agreement on most of the particulars here. And I know the chasm between common sense and what is acceptable in a court of law can be wide.

But for me, it simply comes down to Zimmerman's credibility. At this point, all we have is his word that he acted in self-defense. That opens up him and his story to scrutiny.

I don't know for sure how this would play out if it leads to a criminal proceeding, but I have to think at some point - absent solid evidence - the believability of what he claims will factor in. I don't know, I could be wrong.
 
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The whole 130 something pages in a nutshell.

Much like the Amanda Knox thread, lots of speculation and over-reliance on the meaning and solidity of vague evidence.


A video! A video! My kingdom for a video!
 
1. It doesn't sound like Zimmerman to me, based on his recorded voice.
2. Two audio experts state that it isn't him.
3. Trayvon's mother says it's Trayvon.
4. The screaming stops after the shot is fired.
1. Makes sense to trust your own hearing . . . but weren't you one of the people who couldn't even make out that Zimmermen was saying "punks" and not a racial slur?
2. Those experts are pseudoscietist woos. One of them used software that doesn't work as he claims, the other is so useless he stated Zimmermen said "coons" when he really said "punks".
3. Zimmermen's dad says it was his son screaming. Is their any particular reason to trust one parent over another? While the parents should be the best at recognizing their children's screams they are also going to be very biased. If a proper audio line up had been done the parents voice ID would count for a lot but that doesn't appear to be the case so they are not very reliable. A secondary issue is that Martin's parents have lied about why he had been suspended and gave the media and obviously very young photo of Martin which seems to have been intentionally misleading. So there is good reason to be a little skeptical of Martin's parents. (I wouldn't trust Zimmerman's dad either.)
4. Doesn't mean much really since if it was Zimmermen screaming he might have stopped after the shot was fired since he had already screamed enough to get multiple people to call 911 anyways.

When you listen to the screams which does it honestly sound like:
A)A gun has been drawn on someone and they are calling for help?
B)A person is being beaten up and they are screaming in pain and calling for help?

What did the (limited) eyewitnesses describe?
 
This hang-up some people seem to have in strictly defining Zimmerman's actions in terms of legality doesn't create a full and honest account of the appropriateness of his behavior.

I mostly agree. The questions of whether a crime was committed, and of whether, even if a crime was committed, a crime can be proved, are certainly distinct from the question of whether Zimmerman bears some degree of moral responsibility even if he did not break the law, and even if he acted throughout with no malicious intent. I think he does, because he should have heeded the advice of the operator to stay in the car. Even though that advice does not constitute a command from a law enforcement officer, and therefore does not preclude a self-defense claim, it is nonetheless damn good advice, and as someone active in neighborhood watch, he should have been well aware of the reasons such advice is given. Had he stayed in the car, there would have been no shooting. Whatever happens from here, Zimmerman has to live with that fact.

That said, it is hardly surprising that the focus is on the law, and on whether Zimmerman's actions broke the law. The practical question facing society is whether, according to the law, Zimmerman should be imprisoned for a very long time. Moral culpability is not the same as legal culpability, and to argue that Zimmerman broke no laws is not to argue that Zimmerman therefore did nothing wrong.

I have the legal right to coat my head in honey and stick it in a fire ant hill. But that doesn't make it a good idea.

The bottom line is that taking a gun and following someone you suspect to be a criminal is a reckless and dangerous idea.
Very true, and I agree that Zimmerman displayed very poor judgment. But again, since the immediate practical question is whether to try Zimmerman and potentially put him in prison, it is not unreasonable at this point to focus on legal, as opposed to moral, culpability. But it certainly is helpful for someone to remind us that the two are not the same.

I have no problem with Zimmerman calling the police, despite whatever implication about racial profiling that might have. Sure, Martin might have been unjustly hassled, but in hindsight, it's definitely the lesser of two evils.
I don't fault Zimmerman for calling 9-1-1 either, and I am not at all sure that it was even about racial profiling. Someone new to the neighborhood who is examining houses looking for the house he is visiting (those houses look very similar) can appear to a stranger to be casing houses. There had been break-ins lately, so burglary might be on Zimmerman's mind quite apart from racial profiling. At that point, neither party had done anything wrong, legally or morally. I don't know Zimmerman, so I don't know if he's a racist. But the fact that he thought Trayvon looked suspicious is not proof that he is.

However, the possibility of such a misunderstanding, and the tragic results such a misunderstanding can have, are one more very good reason to avoid the likelihood of confrontation by remaining in the vehicle and waiting for the police to arrive. So I agree that Zimmerman took a morally unjustifiable risk that someone would be harmed, and someone was in fact harmed as a result. Whether or not that is a crime or a tort, it is something Zimmerman ought to feel very guilty about (from what I have read from those who know him, he does).
 
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1. It doesn't sound like Zimmerman to me, based on his recorded voice.
2. Two audio experts state that it isn't him.
3. Trayvon's mother says it's Trayvon.
4. The screaming stops after the shot is fired.
Seems as though you reject any example that could suggest it is GZ and embrace any example that suggests it is TM.

1. I've listened to it several times and can't come to a judgment on whether that is GZ.
2. The "experts" opinions which are highly questionable.
3. GZ's father (brother?) swears it was him and said something like "anyone who knows George recognizes that as his voice". I also read someone in this thread say that TM's father "admitted" it was not him, though I don't know where that quote came from and don't know if it is accurate.
4. One would assume that's what would happen regardless of who was screaming.
5. The only eyewitness we have says it was Zimmerman (I guess the second one who said it was GZ is 13 now says he was pressured into saying it was GZ).

I'm not saying my 5 counterpoints are correct, I have no idea who's voice it is. Based on what we know so far it could easily be either of them.
 
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In the U.S., 63% of murders have gone unsolved since 1980:

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/12593189/report-shows-high-number-of-unsolved-murders-in-us

In the Martin case, it isn't even clear that a murder was committed. Based on the probabilities, based on what little we think we know about the case, and based on the fact that the prosecutor has not seen fit to file charges, it seems quite unlikely that a conviction will be forthcoming.

There will be lots of disappointed people, certain that there has been a miscarriage of justice, due solely to the high profile of the case. But in fact, only 37% of unambiguous murderers are convicted. This is due primarily to the very high judicial standard of guilt. Guilt must be found beyond a reasonable doubt.

What we have here is nothing but doubt. We doubt Z's innocence. We doubt his guilt. We don't know what actually happened. We doubt Z's story. We cannot disprove Z's story. We have conflicting testimony from others. We doubt them.

All is doubt. Nowhere is conviction.
 
1. Makes sense to trust your own hearing . . . but weren't you one of the people who couldn't even make out that Zimmermen was saying "punks" and not a racial slur?
2. Those experts are pseudoscietist woos. One of them used software that doesn't work as he claims, the other is so useless he stated Zimmermen said "coons" when he really said "punks".
3. Zimmermen's dad says it was his son screaming. Is their any particular reason to trust one parent over another? While the parents should be the best at recognizing their children's screams they are also going to be very biased. If a proper audio line up had been done the parents voice ID would count for a lot but that doesn't appear to be the case so they are not very reliable. A secondary issue is that Martin's parents have lied about why he had been suspended and gave the media and obviously very young photo of Martin which seems to have been intentionally misleading. So there is good reason to be a little skeptical of Martin's parents. (I wouldn't trust Zimmerman's dad either.)
4. Doesn't mean much really since if it was Zimmermen screaming he might have stopped after the shot was fired since he had already screamed enough to get multiple people to call 911 anyways.

When you listen to the screams which does it honestly sound like:
A)A gun has been drawn on someone and they are calling for help?
B)A person is being beaten up and they are screaming in pain and calling for help?

What did the (limited) eyewitnesses describe?
I was posting at the same time as you and had not seen your post yet. Would not have posted if I had seen your response.
 
Seems as though you reject any example that could suggest it is GZ and embrace any example that suggests it is TM.

1. I've listened to it several times and can't come to a judgment on whether that is GZ.
2. The "experts" opinions which are highly questionable.
3. GZ's father (brother?) swears it was him and said something like "anyone who knows George knows recognizes that as his voice". I also read someone in this thread say that TM's father "admitted" it was not him, though I don't know where that quote came from and don't know if it is accurate.4. One would assume that's what would happen regardless of who was screaming.
5. The only eyewitness we have says it was Zimmerman (I guess the second one who said it was GZ is 13 now says he was pressured into saying it was GZ).

I'm not saying my 5 counterpoints are correct, I have no idea who's voice it is. Based on what we know so far it could easily be either of them.

I was quoting ABC news. They were quoting from Orlando Sentinal who claimed to have confirmed from the Sanford Police department that Trayvon Martin's father said it was not his son's voice.

Sorry, it was WESH2 news not ABC
 
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I not on either side, since I wasn't a witness, but one thing really bugs me. If you see someone that 'looks suspicious' but isn't actually in the act of, let's say, climbing into a window or something, then why not just walk up to them and nonchalantly strike up a conversation? "Hey how's it going? I'm GZ of the neighborhood watch...how are you doing this evening? Boy this rain sucks!" etc. Better social skills could have, possibly, averted this tragedy. My 2 cents.
 
On the subject of the screaming if I had to make a wager I think it is GZ and my reasoning is as follows. From what we know GZ maintains he was the one screaming. That means he had to have maintained that from the beginning and during his 5 hours of questioning on the night of the killing. IF the police did their jobs even remotely right it also means he had to volunteer that information, i.e. they would not have started by asking him "were you the one screaming".

If he was not the one screaming, that's an incredibly dangerous and completely unnecessary lie to come up with on the spot in order to back up his story. That is, even if it was TM screaming it does not impugn his self-defense claim if they were in a struggle. On the other hand, making the lie would be incredible risky because he did not have any information to know if it would hold up. How would he know that no one would contradict it? And if it was TM screaming, in his (GZ's) mind people would have heard a boys voice screaming, i.e. he would not know that people couldn't identify who it was. In a nutshell, it's only 20/20 hindsight that makes this seem like a lie he would have come up with.

The single eyewitness reporting GZ was on the ground getting beaten also supports this I believe.

I freely admit this entire theory hangs on a string and I'd not be willing to wager any significant amount of money on it.
 
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Much like the Amanda Knox thread, lots of speculation and over-reliance on the meaning and solidity of vague evidence.


A video! A video! My kingdom for a video!
The Amanda Knox thread never gets any respect.:p

In all seriousness, the extended debate between Kestrel and Fulcanelli in the Cartwheel thread was one of the coolest things I ever read.

While this thread does superficially seem similar to the Knox thread it is very different that in the Knox thread people were arguing about stuff more then two years after the murder, and after the (first) court case had been decided, so there was actually plenty of information to make it incredibly clear how Knox was innocent. But Knox had been convicted(!) and there was so much dishonest vitriol directed her way it was a very stormy debate.

What made the Knox thread really interesting to me was that early on the pro-guilt faction was making pretty believable arguments that the Knox supporters were conspiracy theorist woos (or racist Americans). Then slowly the pro-guilt faction started getting cornered on various issues that they had been lying about and it became clear the pro-guilt leadership were the real CT woos themselves all along. Best thread evar.
 
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I not on either side, since I wasn't a witness, but one thing really bugs me. If you see someone that 'looks suspicious' but isn't actually in the act of, let's say, climbing into a window or something, then why not just walk up to them and nonchalantly strike up a conversation? "Hey how's it going? I'm GZ of the neighborhood watch...how are you doing this evening? Boy this rain sucks!" etc. Better social skills could have, possibly, averted this tragedy. My 2 cents.

I'm good with this. Mistakes were made, most likely on both sides but again, I cannot in good conscience understand or excuse GZ's use of a gun. The only vote I get on this is on the internet. That's mime. :p
 
I don't think Z's new lawyer has any idea what ‘Shaken Baby Syndrome’ is:

Trayvon Martin case: George Zimmerman’s lawyer invokes ‘Shaken Baby Syndrome’ as defense

I assume the new lawyer is saying that Z suffered concussion effects. I doubt that considering how he looked 30 minutes later in the police vid. But I am not a doctor.
Jesus, these guys need to shut the **** up :D. This guy is in desperate need of a high profile attorney like David Boise that knows what to say and what not to say to the press.
 
On the subject of the screaming if I had to make a wager I think it is GZ and my reasoning is as follows. From what we know GZ maintains he was the one screaming. That means he had to have maintained that from the beginning and during his 5 hours of questioning on the night of the killing. IF the police did their jobs even remotely right it also means he had to volunteer that information, i.e. they would not have started by asking him "were you the one screaming".

If he was not the one screaming, that's an incredibly dangerous and completely unnecessary lie to come up with on the spot in order to back up his story. That is, even if it was TM screaming it does not impugn his self-defense claim if they were in a struggle. On the other hand, making the lie would be incredible risky because he did not have any information to know if it would hold up. How would he know that no one would contradict it? And if it was TM screaming, in his (GZ's) mind people would have heard a boys voice screaming, i.e. he would not know that people couldn't identify who it was. ~~~~~

OR. he's bright enough to now realize a kid who was screaming for help was probably trying to get away rather than hurt him and shooting said kid looks bad. And came up with this to explain the screams
But not bright enough to see any flaws in his cunning plan.
 
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