Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[sgtbaker]

It bothers me a bit that GZ saw someone walking through a neighborhood and was suspicious. What was he suspicious of exactly? No crime had been committed. TM was on the phone. How is that suspicious? I question his calling 9/11 but hey, if it would have soothed GZ's fears and kept him from playing super hero then it would have been worth it.

People are making a lot about what we don't know. Okay, that's all well and good but we do know that there is no evidence that Martin had committed a crime and no basis to think that he had. Also, AFAIK GZ has not provided a reasonable justification for being suspicious of Martin. But there has been so much I might be wrong on that one. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

*I am creating a story based on the events we know. None of this is fact or considered a likelyhood over any other, by any means.*

According to the girlfriend, Trayvon put his hood on after he noticed Zimmerman was watching him. Zimmerman is driving and sees a kid walking slowly through the neighborhood. [I know when I am on the phone, I am animated when I talk. I know I've seen other people walking and moving their body weird and at first I think they are crazy, then I see they are talking on a BT.] It is quite possible that the "acting weird... like he's on drugs," could have been Trayvon's body movements while he talked on the phone. This could have caught Zimmerman's attention and caused him to watch for other bizarre behaviors. Trayvon, notices a strange man is watching him and puts on his hood. Zimmerman sees a kid, acting like he is on drugs notice him and then put on his hood, which could have looked like he was hiding his identity. He was hiding his identity, but from two different POV's come two different reasons why.

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[Natural Born Skeptic]

Deleted.

 

[sgtbaker]

It's quite ironic how many people on this forum seem to have psychic powers . Would you please describe the encounter and how it took place and how Zimmerman was insanely provocative?

deleted because the quote has changed and the response has changed and my post was rendered irrelevant.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

deleted because the quote has changed and the response has changed and my post was rendered irrelevant.

Sorry about that, I made a mistake while editing.

 

[WildCat]

The most plausible scenario is that Zimmerman tried to detain Martin. Either by grabbing Martin, or by standing in his way, or perhaps even by pulling out his firearm.

I don't find that plausible at all, unless Zimmerman wanted to go to prison for false arrest/kidnapping.

 

[Information Analyst]

Trayvon ran toward the cut through, then turned right to the sidewalk where F is on. Zim leaves his truck and ran toward E, mistakenly thinking Trayvon headed in that direction when he said: "He’s heading towards the back entrance." at 2:20 in the 911 call. At E is when the 911 operator says "we don't need you to do that." Zim says "Okay" and starts to head back to his truck and Trayvon doubled back to meet Zim at the T. Confrontation and altercation ensued. And they ended up closer to F. Here is a picture of Trayvon's dad looking at F and you can also see the T.

You missed out the <=2m 21s between the end of Zimmerman's call to the police, and the end of Martin's call to his girlfriend.

 

[sgtbaker]

This just in, George Zimmerman was a part of the rally for justice for Sherman Ware (the African American Homeless man who was beaten by the son of a Sanford Police man). One of the Martin family attorneys had this to say about it:

“The timing of this letter, it’s right before a grand jury and I believe that it’s very strategic propaganda,” explains attorney Natalie Jackson.

Because we know they used no such propaganda on their part.

My favorite is this one:

Jackson says the message in this is clear. “Divide the black community from the white community in Sanford, Florida but I think people are too smart for that,” adds Jackson.

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/new...s/articles/cfn/2012/4/5/zimmerman_letter_to_/



I found a link to the actual letter:
http://www.thegrio.com/Letter sent to Tonetta Ware.pdf

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

The most plausible scenario is that Zimmerman tried to detain Martin.

There is no most plausible scenario. Just some people inferring whatever fits their fancy and confirms their biases. And many of those interferences stem from 20/20 hindsight and knowing the outcome. If the outcome had been different many of the inferences would be different.

Here's an interesting thing to think about. Imagine that every aspect of this played out identically accept that TM had won control of the gun and killed GZ. Can you imagine how this would be being played out on the part of many? Here are some guesses on my part:

1. TM would probably have been arrested for murder and prosecutors would be talking about trying him as an adult.
2. GZ would likely be being portrayed as the hero who was a family man who put his neck on the line for his neighbors by following someone suspicious.
3. Every bit of history about TM that is currently rightly being dismissed as largely irrelevant such as the fact that he was suspended from school for marijuana would be being used to prove that he's a criminal.
4. GZ's call to 911 would be being used as proof that he was right in his suspicions!
5. TM would be being perceived as a violent hot head who attacked and killed a neighborhood watch captain who was doing nothing but trying to make sure he wasn't up to no good.
6. Many people would be arguing things like "TM had to be the one who escalated it, the most GZ would have done was try to hold TM and all he had to do was wait til the police got there and it would have been worked out".

And of course some people would be arguing against each of these points. But the main thing is if you change the outcome you change how people may perceive each one of those events, even if nothing else changed.

 

[This is The End]

Zimmermann was on the neighborhood watch, supposedly there had been several burglaries in the area, maybe it is uncommon to see people walking through the neighborhood especially in the evening...

<snip>

So when it suits Z's case he is on the neighborhood watch, but when it doesn't suit Z's case he wasn't really on the neighborhood watch.

Got it.

 

[Roadtoad]

So when it suits Z's case he is on the neighborhood watch, but when it doesn't suit Z's case he wasn't really on the neighborhood watch.

Got it.

I've noticed this. Zimmerman seems to be rather flexible when it comes to his testimony, (if that's the word for it.)

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

*I am creating a story based on the events we know. None of this is fact or considered a likelyhood over any other, by any means.*

According to the girlfriend, Trayvon put his hood on after he noticed Zimmerman was watching him. Zimmerman is driving and sees a kid walking slowly through the neighborhood. [I know when I am on the phone, I am animated when I talk. I know I've seen other people walking and moving their body weird and at first I think they are crazy, then I see they are talking on a BT.] It is quite possible that the "acting weird... like he's on drugs," could have been Trayvon's body movements while he talked on the phone. This could have caught Zimmerman's attention and caused him to watch for other bizarre behaviors. Trayvon, notices a strange man is watching him and puts on his hood. Zimmerman sees a kid, acting like he is on drugs notice him and then put on his hood, which could have looked like he was hiding his identity. He was hiding his identity, but from two different POV's come two different reasons why.

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Great post.

 

[Dancing David]

Looking at houses isn't suspicious behavior. In that neighborhood, you had to look up at the sky or down at the ground to avoid looking at houses.

Testing doors to see if they are locked and peering into windows is another matter. That would be suspicious behavior and good reason to call the police.

I should have said something like, looking in windows...

 

[This is The End]

Could someone help me with Florida law in a hypothetical.

Two people are in Florida, they leave a bar and get into a fight. All witnesses agree the fight was mutually started and that the two people were still sober.

One of the two people, now Person A, gets the clear upper hand and is beating Person B senseless. Then Person B pulls out a gun and kills Person A.

Under Florida law would person B have any valid argument for that shooting being justified.

 

[Cylinder]

Could someone help me with Florida law in a hypothetical.

Two people are in Florida, they leave a bar and get into a fight. All witnesses agree the fight was mutually started and that the two people were still sober.

One of the two people, now Person A, gets the clear upper hand and is beating Person B senseless. Then Person B pulls out a gun and kills Person A.

Under Florida law would person B have any valid argument for that shooting being justified.

Step 1: Forget about the Person A perspective. It is irrelevant.

Step 2: Ask youself these questions-

1. Did Person B have a reasonable fear of death, great bodily harm, or forcible felony?

2. Was Person B NOT in the commision of a crime at the time of the shooting?

3. Did Person B NOT have prior difficulties with Person A which caused him to pause the altercation while he armed him/herself?

4. Did Person B NOT initiate the altercation?

In this case, proximity to a licensed establishment may be a crime, but I'll disregard that.

 

[sgtbaker]

So when it suits Z's case he is on the neighborhood watch, but when it doesn't suit Z's case he wasn't really on the neighborhood watch.

Got it.

No, I think there are a lot of people on this thread with varying degrees of information. From the police report, he was on his way to the store, if someone on either side is continuing to support the neighborhood watch version, it's probably because they did not get that memo, yet. I haven't seen anyone go back and forth.

 

[johnny karate]

Major media has no problem with doctoring audio or video to spread racial hatred in a effort to create more news they can fill their 24 hour news channels with.

Huh? MSNBC edited one video, and they've apologized for it. The only media group willing to unapologetically edit video and audio is Fox News, which is defending Zimmerman.

Point of fact, it was actually "The Today Show", not MSNBC, that selectively edited the 911 tape.

And the only video I'm aware of that was altered was the police station surveillance video which was enhanced to better show Zimmerman's supposed injuries. Of course that actually helps Zimmerman's case, so I'm no sure how that fits into this media-wide conspiracy to burn him at the stake.

 

[eeyore1954]

I've noticed this. Zimmerman seems to be rather flexible when it comes to his testimony, (if that's the word for it.)

Have you heard Zimmermann give any testimony on this? Incorrect assumptions or poorly worded posts like mine have nothing to do with what he said.

 

[johnny karate]

I know it's hard to imagine when you have in your head "innocent and scared Trayvon." It's not too hard to imagine if you have in your head "6'3 football player Trayvon" seeing a smaller person trailing him and decides to get tough and confront him. This corroborates Zim's story of Trayvon approaching him from the "left rear." Trayvon could have easily ran home.

Note, I'm not accepting this as truth. It's just the most plausible scenario with the available evidence.

During the 911 call, Zimmerman is following Martin and Zimmerman tells the dispatcher "he ran". So by Zimmerman's own words we know he was chasing someone who was running away from him.

And to you, the most plausible scenario is that upon completion of that call, Zimmerman immediately turned around to return to his truck, while simultaneously Martin also decided to stop and turn around, and then attack the guy from which, only moments before, he was was running away?

That's the most plausible scenario?

 

[Roadtoad]

Have you heard Zimmermann give any testimony on this? Incorrect assumptions or poorly worded posts like mine have nothing to do with what he said.

Good point. I'm basing this on what we've been told he said. Sorry about that.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

*I am creating a story based on the events we know. None of this is fact or considered a likelyhood over any other, by any means.*

According to the girlfriend, Trayvon put his hood on after he noticed Zimmerman was watching him. Zimmerman is driving and sees a kid walking slowly through the neighborhood. [I know when I am on the phone, I am animated when I talk. I know I've seen other people walking and moving their body weird and at first I think they are crazy, then I see they are talking on a BT.] It is quite possible that the "acting weird... like he's on drugs," could have been Trayvon's body movements while he talked on the phone. This could have caught Zimmerman's attention and caused him to watch for other bizarre behaviors. Trayvon, notices a strange man is watching him and puts on his hood. Zimmerman sees a kid, acting like he is on drugs notice him and then put on his hood, which could have looked like he was hiding his identity. He was hiding his identity, but from two different POV's come two different reasons why.

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http://www.clickorlando.com/news/La...tion/-/1637132/9613958/-/57edqqz/-/index.html

Crump played the audio files of the girl, whose identity won't be released because of her age, where she says Martin was running back from 7-Eleven in the rain and he ran into a nearby apartment awning to get shelter. He then called her back at 6:54 p.m. and said he was walking with his hood up.

According to her audio testimony, she said Martin told her "I think this dude is following me," and slowed down to see who it was. She says she then told him to "be careful and just run home."

She said Martin tried to lose Zimmerman and thought he did. He then said "Oh he's right behind me again," according to her testimony, before asking Zimmerman "Why are you following me?"

If that is an accurate reflection of what the GF says, I think he had his hood up prior to entering the subdivision.

Also:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/u...=me&adxnnlx=1333738821-dQPGQe0XELBf wWotjNglQ

Mr. Zimmerman’s father said that what largely aroused his son’s suspicion was how this person was walking close to the town houses, and not on the sidewalk or in the street.