Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Kestrel]

My own personal feeling is that GZ had every legal right to follow Trayvon, however I am not sure what the legal ramifications are of him approaching TM and questioning him. Especially since we will never know the actual details of that encounter. I do question how it happened that in the process of questioning someone else, a fight ensued.

I again would have been yelling my fool head off.

GZ had a right to watch TM, but did he really have cause to call the police? GZ did not witness TM doing anything a normal person would have seen as suspicious. By calling the police, GZ escalated the situation.

When GZ got out of his truck to run after TM, he escalated the situation once again. GZ's comment "these ******** always get away" is a clear sign that GZ believed TM was a criminal.

We know that a confrontation happened between GZ and TM and it quickly escalated into a fight. We don't know for certain that GZ started the fight, but it's in his character to do so. He has already escalated the situation twice in a matter of minutes.

About a minute later, GZ escalated the fight into a homicide. TM wasn't armed, he wasn't prepared for kill someone. He was just walking back from the store after buying some snacks. GZ was the one who brought a loaded weapon.

 

[Noztradamus]

Not surprising , just as likely as what I heard, 'coats'!

Could it have been '*********** *****'?

It's a common expression, has the initial hard 'c', the 'uh', and the terminal 'ts' that you heard. Mystery solved!

 

[RandFan]

GZ had a right to watch TM, but did he really have cause to call the police? GZ did not witness TM doing anything a normal person would have seen as suspicious. By calling the police, GZ escalated the situation.

When GZ got out of his truck to run after TM, he escalated the situation once again. GZ's comment "these ******** always get away" is a clear sign that GZ believed TM was a criminal.

We know that a confrontation happened between GZ and TM and it quickly escalated into a fight. We don't know for certain that GZ started the fight, but it's in his character to do so. He has already escalated the situation twice in a matter of minutes.

About a minute later, GZ escalated the fight into a homicide. TM wasn't armed, he wasn't prepared for kill someone. He was just walking back from the store after buying some snacks. GZ was the one who brought a loaded weapon.

It bothers me a bit that GZ saw someone walking through a neighborhood and was suspicious. What was he suspicious of exactly? No crime had been committed. TM was on the phone. How is that suspicious? I question his calling 9/11 but hey, if it would have soothed GZ's fears and kept him from playing super hero then it would have been worth it.

People are making a lot about what we don't know. Okay, that's all well and good but we do know that there is no evidence that Martin had committed a crime and no basis to think that he had. Also, AFAIK GZ has not provided a reasonable justification for being suspicious of Martin. But there has been so much I might be wrong on that one. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Giz]

AFAIK GZ has not provided a reasonable justification for being suspicious of Martin. But there has been so much I might be wrong on that one. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

My local neighborhood watch keeps an eye out for strange people/vehicles that they don't recognize as living in the neighborhood. If there had been a spate of property crime then perhaps GZ was playing it safe by reporting a slow walking stranger...?

(Of course, this is speculation... we don't know enough to make any kind of determination)

 

[RandFan]

My local neighborhood watch keeps an eye out for strange people/vehicles that they don't recognize as living in the neighborhood. If there had been a spate of property crime then perhaps GZ was playing it safe by reporting a slow walking stranger...?

(Of course, this is speculation... we don't know enough to make any kind of determination)

Thanks.

 

[eeyore1954]

It bothers me a bit that GZ saw someone walking through a neighborhood and was suspicious. What was he suspicious of exactly? No crime had been committed. TM was on the phone. How is that suspicious? I question his calling 9/11 but hey, if it would have soothed GZ's fears and kept him from playing super hero then it would have been worth it.

People are making a lot about what we don't know. Okay, that's all well and good but we do know that there is no evidence that Martin had committed a crime and no basis to think that he had. Also, AFAIK GZ has not provided a reasonable justification for being suspicious of Martin. But there has been so much I might be wrong on that one. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Zimmermann was on the neighborhood watch, supposedly there had been several burglaries in the area, maybe it is uncommon to see people walking through the neighborhood especially in the evening...

Did any of this give him a legitimate reason to be suspicious I don't know but as far as the legal issues in the case goes why does it matter?

 

[Dancing David]

Just so people understand, I am a caller to 911 and non-emergency.

People fighting in the street, people climbing in windows, shady salesmen without city permits, stray dog, teens rumbling down the street.

Once while I was at my ex-wife's house watching my daughter, I saw this guy walking down the street with a suitcase. No big deal but he stopped and stared at each house about two minutes. The last house he started at he walked in the yard and peered in windows, then moved on, so I called the 991.

 

[Dancing David]

Zimmermann was on the neighborhood watch, supposedly there had been several burglaries in the area, maybe it is uncommon to see people walking through the neighborhood especially in the evening...

Did any of this give him a legitimate reason to be suspicious I don't know but as far as the legal issues in the case goes why does it matter?

Suspicious yes, make a call yes. I might have done it. But I would have watched a little more, was he looking at the houses or just talking on the phone?

 

[RandFan]

Zimmermann was on the neighborhood watch, supposedly there had been several burglaries in the area, maybe it is uncommon to see people walking through the neighborhood especially in the evening...

Did any of this give him a legitimate reason to be suspicious I don't know but as far as the legal issues in the case goes why does it matter?

Legally? Not at all an easy question to answer. Short answer is that I honestly don't know. GZ is being investigated for a potential civil rights violation. How his suspicions could or might play into that investigation is outside of my understanding. FTR: My gut feeling is that there is little to no evidence for probable cause for such a violation. Beyond that it could go to state of mind as a contributing factor that led to reckless behavior. But I'm so far removed from being able to state what the likelihood of that is. Perhaps others can disabuse me of any such notions.

 

[Meed]

I haven't read every post in the thread, so forgive me, but is there a theory of motive for Zimmerman murdering Treyvon? Just seems odd that he would call the police over there to come meet him and then, directly afterward, decide to murder Treyvon in an area with a lot of potential witnesses.

Of course it also seems odd that Treyvon would attack Zimmerman and slam his head into the ground and/or reach for his firearm just because he was being followed. Oddly enough a lot of anti-Zimmerman people are making Zimmerman's case by claiming things like "if some armed person was following me around, you bet I would try to attack and disarm them". I don't buy that most people would do that in that situation or that it's a reasonable course of action to expect, though.

The most plausible scenario I can imagine is that neither initially intended to kill or severely injure the other, but one of them started a fight (either Martin because he didn't like being followed or Zimmerman because he thought Martin was an outsider to the neighborhood and a criminal) and it quickly escalated, prompting either Martin becoming enraged and slamming Zimmerman's head into the ground or Zimmerman becoming enraged and murdering Martin in the heat of the moment.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Absolutely, Wild Cat. I simply found it interesting that Smith's report didn't make it into the partial report until at least 3 days after the incident. Perhaps that is typical, a delay of some number of days before a responding officer enters his report on events. Seems like a bad idea to have that kind of lag and that you'd want to enter details as soon as possible to have the most accurate and complete account, memory being what it is. And in this case the optics of that delay aren't great, even if it is routine, given the content of that particular officer's report.

Wasn't the 'partial report' with the earlier date leaked ? Without knowing how the system works and whether you can select what pieces of the report to print or any details, it's all a lot of speculation. And that's fine, I've speculated about things. I just don't have any knowledge to determine if officer smiths portion wasn't available in the computer (I assume these are computer generated) or it just wasn't printed, or if it hadn't been entered.

 

[RandFan]

I haven't read every post in the thread, so forgive me, but is there a theory of motive for Zimmerman murdering Treyvon? Just seems odd that he would call the police over there to come meet him and then, directly afterward, decide to murder Treyvon in an area with a lot of potential witnesses.

Of course it also seems odd that Treyvon would attack Zimmerman and slam his head into the ground and/or reach for his firearm just because he was being followed. Oddly enough a lot of anti-Zimmerman people are making Zimmerman's case by claiming things like "if some armed person was following me around, you bet I would try to attack and disarm them". I don't buy that most people would do that in that situation or that it's a reasonable course of action to expect, though.

The most plausible scenario I can imagine is that neither initially intended to kill or severely injure the other, but one of them started a fight (either Martin because he didn't like being followed or Zimmerman because he thought Martin was an outsider to the neighborhood and a criminal) and it quickly escalated, prompting either Martin becoming enraged and slamming Zimmerman's head into the ground or Zimmerman becoming enraged and murdering Martin in the heat of the moment.

Good post. Agreed.

 

[Kestrel]

Suspicious yes, make a call yes. I might have done it. But I would have watched a little more, was he looking at the houses or just talking on the phone?

Looking at houses isn't suspicious behavior. In that neighborhood, you had to look up at the sky or down at the ground to avoid looking at houses.

Testing doors to see if they are locked and peering into windows is another matter. That would be suspicious behavior and good reason to call the police.

 

[Kestrel]

I haven't read every post in the thread, so forgive me, but is there a theory of motive for Zimmerman murdering Treyvon? Just seems odd that he would call the police over there to come meet him and then, directly afterward, decide to murder Treyvon in an area with a lot of potential witnesses.

Of course it also seems odd that Treyvon would attack Zimmerman and slam his head into the ground and/or reach for his firearm just because he was being followed. Oddly enough a lot of anti-Zimmerman people are making Zimmerman's case by claiming things like "if some armed person was following me around, you bet I would try to attack and disarm them". I don't buy that most people would do that in that situation or that it's a reasonable course of action to expect, though.

The most plausible scenario I can imagine is that neither initially intended to kill or severely injure the other, but one of them started a fight (either Martin because he didn't like being followed or Zimmerman because he thought Martin was an outsider to the neighborhood and a criminal) and it quickly escalated, prompting either Martin becoming enraged and slamming Zimmerman's head into the ground or Zimmerman becoming enraged and murdering Martin in the heat of the moment.

The most plausible scenario is that Zimmerman tried to detain Martin. Either by grabbing Martin, or by standing in his way, or perhaps even by pulling out his firearm. Zimmerman had called the police on several occasions to report young, black males on foot in his neighborhood. On each occasion, they were gone by the time the police arrived. Zimmerman intended to make sure this ******* didn't get away like all the others.

There is no evidence that the young black men Zimmerman reported in prior incidents were actually criminals. As in this case, he didn't witness them committing a crime.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Suspicious yes, make a call yes. I might have done it. But I would have watched a little more, was he looking at the houses or just talking on the phone?

TM was on a BT headset, so it's plausible that GZ had no idea he was talking on the phone.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The most plausible scenario is ...

whatever fits your idea of what happened.

 

[eeyore1954]

Originally Posted by Kestrel
The most plausible scenario is ...

whatever fits your idea of what happened.

The whole 130 something pages in a nutshell.

 

[Meed]

The most plausible scenario is that Zimmerman tried to detain Martin. Either by grabbing Martin, or by standing in his way, or perhaps even by pulling out his firearm. Zimmerman had called the police on several occasions to report young, black males on foot in his neighborhood. On each occasion, they were gone by the time the police arrived. Zimmerman intended to make sure this ******* didn't get away like all the others.

There is no evidence that the young black men Zimmerman reported in prior incidents were actually criminals. As in this case, he didn't witness them committing a crime.

Tried to detain him by shooting him? Your scenario is incomplete, but that sounds like a plausible beginning to whatever happened.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It bothers me a bit that GZ saw someone walking through a neighborhood and was suspicious. What was he suspicious of exactly? No crime had been committed. TM was on the phone. How is that suspicious? I question his calling 9/11 but hey, if it would have soothed GZ's fears and kept him from playing super hero then it would have been worth it.

It's a gated community, so there shouldn't be random pedestrians. GZ had lived there since 2009, so I assume he had some idea of who the people who lived there were, and knew those whom he saw on a regular basis. TM was on a BT headset, with his hood up, in the dark, so it's plausible that GZ had no idea he was on the phone. He was definitely a stranger in the neighborhood, and (SPECULATION) GZ may have seen him come in from the cut through west of the gate. He also likely saw him walk past the front gate, and keep going through the neighborhood. Walking slowly.
Suspicious is relative. You and I may not agree that's suspicious, but I don't find it unreasonable that someone could view that as suspicious.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The whole 130 something pages in a nutshell.

There have been some good discussions on what SYG is, self defense, and which may or not apply.

There have been some good nuggets of facts and some plausible scenarios.

But yeah, a good 75% is probably a lot of non-sense.

I have no problem with someone favoring one plausible scenario over another. Just don't tell me it's the only scenario, or the most plausible, or whatever.