Merged Roosevelt's Rotten Record:Communism, Treachery, Betrayal

[The Dark Lord]

How do you know you have all the relevant evidence? How do you know the government isn't withholding key evidence?

You don't, therefore you are guessing.

How do you know that your mother isn't withholding key evidence regarding me seeing her naked?

You don't, therefore you are guessing.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

One of the more laughable parts of the SCH's whole 'the ships were obsolete, LOL!' argument is that he seems to forget that even if the ships were obsolete (they weren't) the Pearl certainly was not. Even if it was the material stored at Pearl certainly wasn't (unless stores of oil are can be considered 'obsolete'. It was very lucky that the Japanese didn't destroy these as that would have made the attack much more devastating as the so-called 'non-obsolete' fleet would have been unable to move.

One thing you can never do in war is plan on the enemy making a specific mistake, so in SHC's world when FDR hears that there will be an attack on Pearl Harbor he just thinks "that's fine, let them attack - I'll just expect them to not attack the Harbor's resources."

Yeah, that makes sense.

Argument rejected. Everything at Pearl Harbor - men, resources, materiel, facilities, airfields, ships - was either repairable or replaceable and therefore expendable. The U.S. government was in no hurry to defeat Japan and could take its time in the Pacific.

Germany was the focus.

 

[Humanzee]

Argument rejected. Everything at Pearl Harbor - men, resources, materiel, facilities, airfields, ships - was either repairable or replaceable and therefore expendable. The U.S. government was in no hurry to defeat Japan and could take its time in the Pacific.

Germany was the focus.

Wut? Do you have any evidence for this claim?

 

[332nd]

Wut? Do you have any evidence for this claim?

He can't even produce evidence of something he claims to have said in this thread.

 

[332nd]

Since "Tora, Tora, Tora" has been mentioned, I'd just like to repeat that Yamamoto's quote at the end of that movie has less evidence than anything SHC has said so far. (Is he still posting in this thread?)

Yeah that never sounded right to me... I like the movie though.

 

[kookbreaker]

Argument rejected.

Too bad for you. Pretty much every military historian disagrees with your assessment. The contemporaries of the time, including Yamamoto, disagreed as well.

Everything at Pearl Harbor - men, resources, materiel, facilities, airfields, ships - was either repairable or replaceable and therefore expendable.

Which would have taken ages. You simply don't replace hundreds of thousands of barrels of oil overnight, let alone repair a ship facility.

The U.S. government was in no hurry to defeat Japan and could take its time in the Pacific.

Actually, no the US could not. There were multiple interests in the Pacific that needed defending and the destruction of those resources would mean that not only they could not be defended, but Hawaii and much of the West Coast of the US would have been troublesome to defend as well. We know now with hindsight (and post-war examination of the Japanese plans) that Japan did not initially intend for this kind of action, but in 1941 we had no way of knowing that.

Without those resources Japan would have been unchecked for months if not more - that means no battle of the Coral Sea, no defense of Midway beyond its own garrison.

Germany was the focus.

No. Japan was also the focus. For all the 'Germany First' talk, the Pacific needed defending and an offensive strategy as well. It demanded and received resources as well. To lose such a huge percentage of placed resources in the first few hours of the war would have been crippling.

You really don't know much about history, do you?

 

[Mudcat]

No, not really. It's only open and shut for those who wish to subscribe to the official conspiracy theory.

I have no wish to buy into any kind of story, I follow established information to a reasonable conclusion. And the conclusion is that it was a surprise attack.

For those who don't, the debate rages on.

This is in debate? Since when?

Why is it reasonable to conclude that the attack was a surprise? Because the government said so?

No declaration of intent from the Japanese government and no intel leading a revevaltion of am imminent attack, plus insufficent deterents to said attack sounds like a sneak attack to me.

Unlike you, I don't assume the government told us the truth.

No, the only one making any assumptions here is you. Of this I assure you.

Therefore, from my point of view, in absence of any contrary evidence the only reasonable conclusion was that it wasn't a surprise to our government.

SHC, accusing the government or the president of having advanced knowledge (weither from a proclamation of intent from Japan or from gathered intel) and doing nothing to stop it despite all evidence to the contrary is a baseless assertion.

Saying that you haven't made your case is an undeniable fact.

Right back at you.

What is this, elementary school? "I'm rubber and you're glue" is hardly a good argument.

 

[Mudcat]

Nonsense. We have records, we have diaries, and we have the information that was available to FDR. Unless FDR was able to astrally project to see the IJN fleet in motion there is no indication that he knew the attack was coming. This was all provided to you, but you declined to look at it, preferring to play games instead.

If FDR knew, then he had to get that information from someone. More than just 'someone', probably dozens if not hundreds of 'someones'. Naval and diplomatic intelligence information doesn't show up magically on the President's desk. It has to be gathered, filtered, analyzed, and summarized. That involves lots of people, and the idea that all of these people kept quiet for decades about their comrades being slaughtered and the Pacific fleet crippled defies logic in just about every way possible. Only in the minds of CT fools can this kind of human behavior take place, a reflection of their own mindsets rather than those of real human beings.

In the meantime all that you can do is claim is that some mysterious,, unnamed, unverified, and exist only in your imagination classified documents might vindicate your claims. Never mind that these documents didn't write themselves. So you are reduced to twisted 'logic' games that are an insult to the word logic.

We aren't guessing. Every piece of data we have points towards the attack on Pearl Harbor being a surprise. You fantasies and games don't change that one bit.

Add on to that, if Japan had made this declaration of intent to attack on Pearl Harbor we'd have evidence for that, too.

 

[dudalb]

Taking bets as to how long until SHC buys into the Holocaust Denial Crap....seems to be right up his alley.

 

[Laton]

Taking bets as to how long until SHC buys into the Holocaust Denial Crap....seems to be right up his alley.

I think he's already there:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8169510&postcount=17

but given his posting style its kind of hard to tell.

 

[The Dark Lord]

Taking bets as to how long until SHC buys into the Holocaust Denial Crap....seems to be right up his alley.

Too late:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8122086#post8122086

 

[Corsair 115]

They were given warnings that the Japanese were ready to move, "in any direction" and to be prepared. That means getting ready for war. Short, however, only focused on sabotage of his own forces, despite the fact that the only reason his troops were on Oahu was to protect the fleet when it was in port. Kimmel increased anti-submarine protection, but kept the Fleet in port. Even worse for Kimmel was the fact that the Japanese only tried the attack because Kimmel had the fleet on "banker's hours" and thus became predictable enough from the IJN to risk the venture.

The Japanese sailing a major striking force 3,000 miles across the Pacific to hit the U.S. in its own backyard is an incredibly audacious and very risky move. I find it hard to fault Kimmel for not taking that possibility seriously. It would have seemed almost beyond belief that any nation would attempt so outlandish an action.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yeah that never sounded right to me... I like the movie though.

The movie was generally faithful to the facts without any serious mistakes other than that quote, which was stuck in to give a slightly upbeat ending to the movie.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Why would there have to be a surprise attack on Pearl to give an excuse for war?

Wouldn't intercepting the enemy forces and defending Pearl have been a big enough reason to go to war? Why didn't the conspiracists allow the US forces to discover the Japanese as they were preparing to launch the airstrike? That way you get your Japanese aggression and you get to damage their ships and aircraft instead of looking like complete idiots.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Wouldn't intercepting the enemy forces and defending Pearl have been a big enough reason to go to war?

Yes. So SHC's conjecture is illogical as well as contrary to all available evidence from any source.

His tactic of handwaving away all evidence as tainted and claiming his fantasy therefore has equal weight is just needling people to get a reaction, and it's got boring really fast.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Why would there have to be a surprise attack on Pearl to give an excuse for war?

Wouldn't intercepting the enemy forces and defending Pearl have been a big enough reason to go to war? Why didn't the conspiracists allow the US forces to discover the Japanese as they were preparing to launch the airstrike? That way you get your Japanese aggression and you get to damage their ships and aircraft instead of looking like complete idiots.

Allow the aircraft to come in, with every man and gun of the Army AND Navy manned, loaded and ready. 8 BBs, 2 CAs, 6 CLs, 30 DDs, etc., all waiting for the Japanese. It would have been a slaughter. Meanwhile, Enterprise, Lexington, and Saratoga (rushed out from the West Coast for the party), ambushes the Kido Butai, which only has 30 fighters covering the entire formation.

Just Let It Happen? Very stupid idea.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

Allow the aircraft to come in, with every man and gun of the Army AND Navy manned, loaded and ready. 8 BBs, 2 CAs, 6 CLs, 30 DDs, etc., all waiting for the Japanese. It would have been a slaughter. Meanwhile, Enterprise, Lexington, and Saratoga (rushed out from the West Coast for the party), ambushes the Kido Butai, which only has 30 fighters covering the entire formation.

Just Let It Happen? Very stupid idea.

Not really, since it put the American people squarely behind two foreign interventions. An ambush of the Japanese fleet and destruction of the IJN would have changed the entire dynamic of the Pacific front/strategic picture, along with Roosevelt's designs on a European intervention.

So, your little ambush scenario, while interesting in a "what if?" sort of way, is duly rejected.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The idea that the US was isolationist prior to Pearl Harbor is another sad sack meme of the CT whack jobs. And ignorance of logistics leads them to think a two-ocean war was a trivial thing.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

Why would there have to be a surprise attack on Pearl to give an excuse for war?

Wouldn't intercepting the enemy forces and defending Pearl have been a big enough reason to go to war? Why didn't the conspiracists allow the US forces to discover the Japanese as they were preparing to launch the airstrike? That way you get your Japanese aggression and you get to damage their ships and aircraft instead of looking like complete idiots.

Intercepting the Japanese fleet prior to a Pearl Harbor attack would have meant that the United States was the aggressor, since it would have put U.S. forces in the position of firing the "first shot". This clearly runs counter to the Roosevelt plan (McCollum memo/Stimson's diary) for selling the war to the American people as a matter of national defense.

The Pearl Harbor "surprise" was instrumental to the Roosevelt plan, so that was the path followed, and, in historical hindsight, it worked. The American people were totally bamboozled (at least the ones not locked up in concentration camps, that is).

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184152