Merged Roosevelt's Rotten Record:Communism, Treachery, Betrayal

[332nd]

They were given warnings that the Japanese were ready to move, "in any direction" and to be prepared. That means getting ready for war. Short, however, only focused on sabotage of his own forces, despite the fact that the only reason his troops were on Oahu was to protect the fleet when it was in port. Kimmel increased anti-submarine protection, but kept the Fleet in port. Even worse for Kimmel was the fact that the Japanese only tried the attack because Kimmel had the fleet on "banker's hours" and thus became predictable enough from the IJN to risk the venture.

I recall an interview with one of Short's sailors saying they were supposed to look out for sabotage which is what I thought the whole fleet was doing.

Didn't know that Kimmel's guys were on that predictable a schedule though.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

The fact that Republicans were slathering for FDR's blood and would have jumped on a real "Just Let It Happen"(tm) seems to have escaped them.

According to whom? Who says this was the case? The corporate media? The political establishment in BrainWashington, D.C.? Court historians? Why do your arguments rely on this notion of perfect competition and separation between the two parties?

Of course the Dems and Repubs were and are in bed with each other, any apparent conflict is a construct to confuse the sheeple.

Sure, and why not? Both parties have displayed a knack for seamlessly carrying out each other's policies, wars, and occupations. Rarely do you see the parties overturning legislation created by the opposing party.

What better way to keep power than to convince those you rule that they have a choice when they really don't?

 

[Dancing David]

Who else, other than the U.S. government, has unfettered access to records of U.S. government intelligence assessments, communications, and classified material?

By controlling the release of in-house information, the U.S. government controls the narrative. If the U.S. government claims they had no knowledge of something, you can't disprove it either way because they control the flow of information.

Really, what kind of secrets lock is there on FDR's papers. How long is it?

 

[Border Reiver]

How would the IJN really know if the attack surprised our government? How would they have confirmed such a thing?

Just because the commanders, sailors, and airmen at Pearl Harbor were surprised doesn't necessarily mean our government was surprised.

Because rational beings don't "just let it happen.". If you want a war you do not allow your top assets get attacked with a minimal ability to avoid catastrophic damage. You don't cripple yourself to get into a fight, hoping that you can be healed by the time the final round turns up.

Roosevelt felt that the European Axis was the main show, letting Japan attack was no guarantee that he'd get the European war he thought needed to be fought. Fortunately, a certain failed art student and former corporal obliged and declared war.

 

[Dancing David]

False.

I'm claiming we have no way of knowing whether evidence has been concealed or not. You believe it hasn't been while I believe it has been.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I have a giant in my garage it takes the diamonds that my unicorn poops out and makes them into computer parts.

 

[Dancing David]

False.

I have just as much as your side, since both sides can only speculate as to what the Roosevelt administration really knew about the oncoming attack.

Your speculative guesses are no better than mine.

So all of FDR's memos are under secret lock?

 

[kookbreaker]

False.

I have just as much as your side, since both sides can only speculate as to what the Roosevelt administration really knew about the oncoming attack.

Your speculative guesses are no better than mine.

Nonsense. We have records, we have diaries, and we have the information that was available to FDR. Unless FDR was able to astrally project to see the IJN fleet in motion there is no indication that he knew the attack was coming. This was all provided to you, but you declined to look at it, preferring to play games instead.

If FDR knew, then he had to get that information from someone. More than just 'someone', probably dozens if not hundreds of 'someones'. Naval and diplomatic intelligence information doesn't show up magically on the President's desk. It has to be gathered, filtered, analyzed, and summarized. That involves lots of people, and the idea that all of these people kept quiet for decades about their comrades being slaughtered and the Pacific fleet crippled defies logic in just about every way possible. Only in the minds of CT fools can this kind of human behavior take place, a reflection of their own mindsets rather than those of real human beings.

In the meantime all that you can do is claim is that some mysterious,, unnamed, unverified, and exist only in your imagination classified documents might vindicate your claims. Never mind that these documents didn't write themselves. So you are reduced to twisted 'logic' games that are an insult to the word logic.

We aren't guessing. Every piece of data we have points towards the attack on Pearl Harbor being a surprise. You fantasies and games don't change that one bit.

 

[Laton]

So all of FDR's memos are under secret lock?

It really wouldn't matter. We could have a diary entry from FDR saying:

"Boy, that whole Pearl Harbor thing came as a complete suprise, those sneaky guys."

and it would just be dismissed as FDR just covering up his knowledge of the attack.

 

[The Dark Lord]

It really wouldn't matter. We could have a diary entry from FRD saying:



and it would just be dismissed as FDR just covering up his knowledge of the attack.

As I have said before, the only way that SHC could be convinced is if he could go back in time and read FDR's mind.

 

[kookbreaker]

One of the more laughable parts of the SCH's whole 'the ships were obsolete, LOL!' argument is that he seems to forget that even if the ships were obsolete (they weren't) the Pearl certainly was not. Even if it was the material stored at Pearl certainly wasn't (unless stores of oil are can be considered 'obsolete'. It was very lucky that the Japanese didn't destroy these as that would have made the attack much more devastating as the so-called 'non-obsolete' fleet would have been unable to move.

One thing you can never do in war is plan on the enemy making a specific mistake, so in SHC's world when FDR hears that there will be an attack on Pearl Harbor he just thinks "that's fine, let them attack - I'll just expect them to not attack the Harbor's resources."

Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[Laton]

As I have said before, the only way that SHC could be convinced is if he could go back in time and read FDR's mind.

It's pretty clear that there is no evidence that SHC would actually accept.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I recall an interview with one of Short's sailors saying they were supposed to look out for sabotage which is what I thought the whole fleet was doing.

Point of order: Short was Army. However, yes, all military was to be alert for sabotage. There were ~160,000 people of Japanese heritage on Oahu, including ~35,000 who were born in Japan or were Japanese citizens by birth. There were no acts of sabotage during the entire war in the T. H., despite the fact that the Japanese were not rounded up. The local governor protested the very idea of a round-up, stating that Hawaii's economy would collapse overnight if the Isei and Nisei were taken into custody.

Didn't know that Kimmel's guys were on that predictable a schedule though.

This was the basis of Yamamoto's guarantee of a "big bag". Yoshikawa Takeo, a IJN officer working in Hawaii under an assumed name, reported ship's movements for months before the attack and st

 

[SpringHallConvert]

So all of FDR's memos are under secret lock?

Maybe. Maybe some others were destroyed and/or sabotaged. You don't know.

You only assume you've been given all the real details of what our government truly knew prior to December 7, 1941.

 

[The Dark Lord]

Maybe. Maybe some others were destroyed and/or sabotaged. You don't know.

You only assume you've been given all the real details of what our government truly knew prior to December 7, 1941.

You only assume that I have not seen your mother naked. You don't really know.

 

[332nd]

Point of order: Short was Army. However, yes, all military was to be alert for sabotage. There were ~160,000 people of Japanese heritage on Oahu, including ~35,000 who were born in Japan or were Japanese citizens by birth. There were no acts of sabotage during the entire war in the T. H., despite the fact that the Japanese were not rounded up. The local governor protested the very idea of a round-up, stating that Hawaii's economy would collapse overnight if the Isei and Nisei were taken into custody.

Ah, well it couldn't have been Short's man then... (I wonder if I'm mixing up names from "Tora, Tora, Tora"...)
At any rate that's what i thought was going on with the sabotage threat.

This was the basis of Yamamoto's guarantee of a "big bag". Yoshikawa Takeo, a IJN officer working in Hawaii under an assumed name, reported ship's movements for months before the attack and st

I see.

 

[332nd]

SHC posts since claim: 13

Proof provided by SHC: None.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

We aren't guessing. Every piece of data we have points towards the attack on Pearl Harbor being a surprise. You fantasies and games don't change that one bit.

False. You are guessing, as you can't be certain that you've been provided a full picture of all the evidence by the government.

Like you said, fantasies and games don't change that one bit.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Since "Tora, Tora, Tora" has been mentioned, I'd just like to repeat that Yamamoto's quote at the end of that movie has less evidence than anything SHC has said so far. (Is he still posting in this thread?)

 

[kookbreaker]

False. You are guessing,

No, we are working with the overall picture of evidence. That is not guessing.

as you can't be certain that you've been provided a full picture of all the evidence by the government.

Like I said, your dreams of hidden documents is not considered anything but laughable fantasies.

Like you said, fantasies and games don't change that one bit.

Yup. Like I said. But I am not fantasizing or playing games. I'm working with evidence.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

No, we are working with the overall picture of evidence. That is not guessing.

How do you know you have all the relevant evidence? How do you know the government isn't withholding key evidence?

You don't, therefore you are guessing.