Stand Your Ground (licence to kill)?

[Resume]

Overall, violence is fun... until it happens to us.

No, it isn't.

 

[RobDegraves]

Originally Posted by RobDegraves View Post
Overall, violence is fun... until it happens to us.
No, it isn't.

Wow.... nothing like a poorly thought out three word answer.

Are you saying that violence is not popular on tv, movies and video games? Really?

 

[lionking]

That you consider it disproportional doesn't bother me. I don't know what a low life who broke into my home would be there for or if he has a weapon or what. I value my life and the lives of my loved ones infinitely more than his so I am shooting unless I am sure I don't need to. And this would be completely legal. Don't like it? Tough ****.

I think you will find that if you simply blow someone away if they broke into your house you will have a case to answer. That may turn out to be tough **** for you.

 

[Resume]

Overall, violence is fun... until it happens to us.

No, it isn't.

Wow.... nothing like a poorly thought out three word answer.

Are you saying that violence is not popular on tv, movies and video games? Really?

No, violence isn't fun when it happens to you.

 

[The Dark Lord]

I think you will find that if you simply blow someone away if they broke into your house you will have a case to answer. That may turn out to be tough **** for you.

I doubt it very much. According to the law, I am presumed to reasonably believe that deadly force is needed against someone who broke into my home. And thus I can blow him away.

 

[RobDegraves]

@Resume

No, violence isn't fun when it happens to you.

My apologies, I misread the intent of your answer completely.


@The Dark Lord

According to the law, I am presumed to reasonably believe that deadly force is needed against someone who broke into my home. And thus I can blow him away.

In what state?

By "blow him away", do you mean engage in a gun fight where both of you might die? Or do you think you will obviously win all such events?

 

[3point14]

I doubt it very much. According to the law, I am presumed to reasonably believe that deadly force is needed against someone who broke into my home. And thus I can blow him away.

Bolding mine.

Again, I read relish into this, there's no regret.. The langage is the language of movies, where violence is 'good'.

 

[The Dark Lord]

@
@The Dark Lord



In what state?

By "blow him away", do you mean engage in a gun fight where both of you might die? Or do you think you will obviously win all such events?

Arizona.

And "gun fight" presumes that both sides have guns. He may or may not. If he did, I do think that I would likely win. Being my house, I would have the tactical advantage and I am almost certainly better with a gun than some random low life who breaks into people's homes.

 

[The Dark Lord]

Bolding mine.

Again, I read relish into this, there's no regret.. The langage is the language of movies, where violence is 'good'.

I was simply using the same language that lionking used. Please follow the conversation.

 

[3point14]

So, a hypothetical.

You and your family are sleeping p3eacfully upstairs. You wake and hear the sounds of a man downstairs making off with your enormous telly.

You take your weapon, click off the safety and wander downstairs to face the evildoer. He too has a gun and a gunfight ensues.

Now, I am aware that most people aren't very good shots. I'm also aware that an awful lot of houses in the US are built mainly of wood. What are the odds of a large calibre bullet (and there has been much discussion in this thread of the stopping power of various different firearms) flying through the ceiling and embedding itself into some vital body part of your wife and/or children?

 

[3point14]

I was simply using the same language that lionking used. Please follow the conversation.

No need to be sarcatic. I follow the conversation well enough, but I don't have an eidetic memory. If you're going to get all stroppy about me not recognising that you're using someone else's words, then I reccomend inverted commas or the quote box to reduce confusion.

 

[The Dark Lord]

So, a hypothetical.

You and your family are sleeping p3eacfully upstairs. You wake and hear the sounds of a man downstairs making off with your enormous telly.

You take your weapon, click off the safety and wander downstairs to face the evildoer. He too has a gun and a gunfight ensues.

Now, I am aware that most people aren't very good shots. I'm also aware that an awful lot of houses in the US are built mainly of wood. What are the odds of a large calibre bullet (and there has been much discussion in this thread of the stopping power of various different firearms) flying through the ceiling and embedding itself into some vital body part of your wife and/or children?

I dunno.

 

[3point14]

I dunno.

See, for me, that's the first consideration. 'If I go downstairs and confront these people with my gun, am I increasing or decreasing the chances that my family or I will get shot?'

If I don't go downstairs and I simply let them hightail it with my telly, no-one gets shot and I put in an insurance claim.

If I initiate a firefight then I might get shot. Or, worse still, my wife or children might get shot. The guilt I would feel at that point would be unbearable.

 

[Cylinder]

I think you will find that if you simply blow someone away if they broke into your house you will have a case to answer. That may turn out to be tough **** for you.

I was presented with this problem real-world about 2 years ago. My then 8-year-old daughter presented herself in my room claiming someone was at her window. I decided to give in without a fight and told her to climb in bed. She look at me with her no BS face and said "Daddy, somebody's at my window."

I retreived my firearm, told my wife to arm herself and get the kids. I reached my child's door, did my quick look and saw that the window was open and someone was indeed gaining entry. I went to Condition 0 (chambered round, safety off), sighted (I like high compressed ready, BTW) and mentally drew my red line. When his body touched the floor I would identify and shoot. No interveiw any only a split-second assessment.

Luckily for this young man, two very fortunate things happened. First, my daughter had evacuated her room. This decompressed my decision to the point where my step-daughter had time to intervene. Her male freind was sneaking in the house and chose the wrong window. This kid was seconds away. Had my daughter remained in her room, I would have taken the shot. I shudder to think about that.

After his initial shock wore off, the little punk laughed at me. That was too much. We had the kid sat (Condition 1) at gunpoint and he thought the thing funny somehow. Stupid kid. I told my wife that I was about to shoot him and that she should tell the police that he was trying to disarm me. I think she me took me a bit too serious at first, she told me not to. I said she was right - I would shoot him and dig a hole. No-one knew where he was - he had either snuck out or lied to his parents about where he was.

At any rate, the deputy arrived, cuffed and stuffed - the whole time the kid screaming "He's got a gun!" The deputy's reply (to paraphrase), "No crap, dumbbutt - he should have shot you."

We decided out of respect to the kids parents not to do a B&E complaint. A dective came out to "investigate" the threats I had made, but mainly just to fill out his report so that the kid would have a history in case something like that happened again.

In Arkansas, I would have been well on pretty firm ground. We have no Castle Doctrine on the books but the "complete safety" standard for retreat makes "defense from home invasion" prosecutions prohibitive.

People aren't out looking for someone to "blow away." People around here want to secure in their person and their property and the vast majority want to avoid conflict.

 

[fuelair]

See, this is what I mean. I'm sure I'm wrong, but the gleeful list of different ways you can mutilate, maim and kill an intruder really does make it seem to me like you're wishing for it to happen, just so you can unleash all that hardware.

I may be missing something but unless something about my normal writing style suggests glee, I have no idea why you think I would enjoy this. I truly hope it never occurs and I understand the odds of it are small - but they are not non-existent. I also keep supplies for hurricane/tornado and fire... but that does not mean I want them to happen either.

I guess what interests me most (I have an awful lot of interests) is the number of amateur psychologists/psychiatrists among our forumites who, unlike real same, make gigantic leaps between unconnected or very semi-connected things.

I should note (and I am A) sure this will be misinterpreted and B)realistic) that the devices I picked were chosen to assure death IF they have to be used. This is for the safety of my wife and me AND to avoid any functional chance of a lawsuit. (And - because this will come up I am sure - yes, I value us and our savings over the life of a person INVADING OUR HOUSE WITH INTENT TO DO THINGS BAD FOR US - and that is exactly what a person(s) who comes in that way when the house is clearly occupied does, logically, intend.

There are no traps/dead drops or any such in the house for when we are not in it (though I freely admit that if they were legal/not illegal there would be!!).

 

[Cylinder]

If I don't go downstairs and I simply let them hightail it with my telly, no-one gets shot and I put in an insurance claim.

Or the intruder finds your wife and children and to decides to have some fun. Or the meth tells him that witnesses are a bad idea - he's not going back to prison.

If I initiate a firefight then I might get shot. Or, worse still, my wife or children might get shot. The guilt I would feel at that point would be unbearable.

You're absolutely right. Your thought should never be to initiate a firefight. Never.

 

[3point14]

I was presented with this problem real-world about 2 years ago. My then 8-year-old daughter presented herself in my room claiming someone was at her window. I decided to give in without a fight and told her to climb in bed. She look at me with her no BS face and said "Daddy, somebody's at my window."

I retreived my firearm, told my wife to arm herself and get the kids. I reached my child's door, did my quick look and saw that the window was open and someone was indeed gaining entry. I went to Condition 0 (chambered round, safety off), sighted (I like high compressed ready, BTW) and mentally drew my red line. When his body touched the floor I would identify and shoot. No interveiw any only a split-second assessment.

Luckily for this young man, two very fortunate things happened. First, my daughter had evacuated her room. This decompressed my decision to the point where my step-daughter had time to intervene. Her male freind was sneaking in the house and chose the wrong window. This kid was seconds away. Had my daughter remained in her room, I would have taken the shot. I shudder to think about that.

After his initial shock wore off, the little punk laughed at me. That was too much. We had the kid sat (Condition 1) at gunpoint and he thought the thing funny somehow. Stupid kid. I told my wife that I was about to shoot him and that she should tell the police that he was trying to disarm me. I think she me took me a bit too serious at first, she told me not to. I said she was right - I would shoot him and dig a hole. No-one knew where he was - he had either snuck out or lied to his parents about where he was.

At any rate, the deputy arrived, cuffed and stuffed - the whole time the kid screaming "He's got a gun!" The deputy's reply (to paraphrase), "No crap, dumbbutt - he should have shot you."

We decided out of respect to the kids parents not to do a B&E complaint. A dective came out to "investigate" the threats I had made, but mainly just to fill out his report so that the kid would have a history in case something like that happened again.

In Arkansas, I would have been well on pretty firm ground. We have no Castle Doctrine on the books but the "complete safety" standard for retreat makes "defense from home invasion" prosecutions prohibitive.

People aren't out looking for someone to "blow away." People around here want to secure in their person and their property and the vast majority want to avoid conflict.

your language is subtly different from some others here, and doesn't give me the impression that you're just itching to 'blow someone away'.

I addition, someone breaking into your daughter's room is a very different situation to someone making off with your telly.


As an aside, a friend of mine got very drunk one night and got home without his keys. In his drunken state, he tried to climb in the window of his next door neighbour. We all thought it was quite funny. So did the neighbour.

 

[3point14]

Or the intruder finds your wife and children and to decides to have some fun. Or the meth tells him that witnesses are a bad idea - he's not going back to prison.



You're absolutely right. Your thought should never be to initiate a firefight. Never.

Once your family is threatened, then I accept it is a different situation. I just don't get why people would start a firefight near their family just for the sake of a TV (or other replacable, material goods) that's likely to be insured anyway.

If there's a straight choice between there being very hot led travelling at the speed of sound anywhere near my loved ones and there not being, then I'm going for the no lead at all, thank you very much.

 

[RobDegraves]

@ The Dark Lord

If he did, I do think that I would likely win. Being my house, I would have the tactical advantage and I am almost certainly better with a gun than some random low life who breaks into people's homes.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you sound pretty ... unwise at best.

1. Many criminals have the same fascination you have with guns.
2. They don't have to worry about shooting their family members by mistake.
3. They are already breaking the law, so that doesn't stop them either.
4. The low life might not be alone.
5. I am not an expert but I believe that in Arizona, shooting someone in your home still exposes you to a civil "wrongful death" lawsuit.

Lastly... http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html

 

[Weak Kitten]

Has anyone mentioned this case from a few years back? Personally I wish I had the courage and nerves of that woman.