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The death throes of a conspiracy theory.

Jack by the hedge said:
Proof is for mathematics. There is evidence. The evidence points to X. You are free to imagine that Y, Z or any other letter you like is what really happened, but the actual evidence says X.

Ah, yes. How silly of me. I stupidly imagined that the POTUS might have sufficient security clearance to be permitted to read documents concerning his predecessors decisions.

I meant, of course, why would he have kept quiet about the conspiracy after he became president. It was the fact that Bush fought and very nearly died in the war you say FDR contrived that made me choose him. Why would he of all people protect FDR?

If we imagine for a moment your fantasy was real, what evidence to support it would exist? What actual documents? Which people would know they existed, and why would they all keep quiet?
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This reminds of how moan hoaxers constantly seem to forget that many of the people who could figure the plan out are, literally, rocket scientists. They can figure out some way to get the word out anonymously. Similarly, the folks behind or involved in the hypothetical Pearl Harbor conspiracy were often in intelligence.
 
Mudcat said:
Realistically speaking what could Roosevelt have done to stop the concentration camps from being built in another country almost half way across the globe? And you still haven't disputed the undisputable fact that allowing your enemies to strikeing at you when you have intelligence to prevent said strike is tactically unsound.
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I think SHC is referring to Roosevelt's internment of Americans of Japanese descent. That was certainly not one of Roosevelt's finest achievements. However, arguing that because he violated the rights of American citizens in the mistaken belief that they represented a danger to the country shows that he would have deliberately crippled our own fleet and murdered our own military personnel to justify going to war makes sense only to a deluded mind.
 
CORed said:
I think SHC is referring to Roosevelt's internment of Americans of Japanese descent. That was certainly not one of Roosevelt's finest achievements. However, arguing that because he violated the rights of American citizens in the mistaken belief that they represented a danger to the country shows that he would have deliberately crippled our own fleet and murdered our own military personnel to justify going to war makes sense only to a deluded mind.
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Is that what he was going on about? If so why not call them by their proper name? And while it wasn't a very humane action to take I'd imagine the internment camps were nothing like the actual concentration camps built halfway around the world. SHC needs to keep things in perspective.
 
SpringHallConvert said:
The claim:

The U.S. government had no foreknowledge of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and did not allow it to happen.
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This claim is a positive claim. It asserts a positive - that there was an absence of both foreknowledge and complicity on the part of the U.S. government. The evidence to support this claim is arbitrarily limited by none other than the U.S. government itself.

If you can't prove this claim, then by definition you are speculating. This makes you a "conspiracy theorist".
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The claim is actually a negative claim. I've bolded the relavent word that you apparently don't understand.
 
SpringHallConvert said:
That's the beauty of it, though. I only need one trick to hammer you guys into a losing position. I don't need ten. I don't even need two. I only need one.

And of course, you're completely defenseless to do anything about it.
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Actually, he has two tricks. The second is repeatedly declaring victory.

Of course you won, Black Knight. If you'd like your arms and legs back, please PM one of the adults in the thread with your shipping address.
 
CORed said:
The claim is actually a negative claim. I've bolded the relavent word that you apparently don't understand.
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Fine. If you admit that it's a negative claim, that means you can't possibly prove your Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory (Roosevelt didn't know!), which by default means you are a conspiracy theorist. You're theorizing about a conspiracy that you can't prove. I've got you either way.

Any questions?
 
SpringHallConvert said:
Fine. If you admit that it's a negative claim, that means you can't possibly prove your Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory (Roosevelt didn't know!), which by default means you are a conspiracy theorist. You're theorizing about a conspiracy that you can't prove. I've got you either way.

Any questions?
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Sure. When are you going to answer what you consider proof?
 
I love how asserting X didn't know and wasn't part of a conspiracy is a conspiracy theory. Good old CT dictionary.
 
SpringHallConvert said:
Show me some proof so I can consider it and let you know.
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"I can only eat certain foods, or I might get violently ill or die."
"That's horrible!"
"Yeah. Can you bring me back some lunch while you're out?"
"Uh, okay. What are those special foods?"
"Why don't you just buy some food, bring it back, and then I'll let you know if I can eat it."
 
CORed said:
I think SHC is referring to Roosevelt's internment of Americans of Japanese descent. That was certainly not one of Roosevelt's finest achievements. However, arguing that because he violated the rights of American citizens in the mistaken belief that they represented a danger to the country shows that he would have deliberately crippled our own fleet and murdered our own military personnel to justify going to war makes sense only to a deluded mind.
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Actually, it makes perfect sense.

If Roosevelt was morally depraved enough to cage thousands of U.S. citizens for the non-crime of simply being of Japanese descent, why wouldn't he also be morally depraved enough to have a few thousand U.S. citizens murdered so he could finally have an excuse to join a war he was dying to drag the country into?

The kind of scum who would allow concentration camps for his citizens is also the kind of scum who would allow them to be sacrificial cannon fodder, and you've got no good argument to the contrary.
 
DGM said:
Sure, what kind of proof do you require?
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What do you have? Show me what you have and I'll take a look at it. If you provide a link, be prepared to summarize and explain the relevance of the contents within.

Show me the evidence that conclusively proves your conspiracy theory.
 
I used to watch "Concentration" on TV. Didn't know you had to go to a special camp to play it. Man, the things you learn here!
 
SpringHallConvert said:
Show me some proof so I can consider it and let you know.
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As JU wrote:
Your idea of "business" is playground name-calling?

You've asked for proof that FDR didn't know something. I'm asking you what you would accept as proof, from a third party, of just such a proposition. Can you at least explain why that's an unreasonable request?

Or if that's too difficult, I've asked you to do it by example: I've asked you to prove I don't know your birthday. By constructing an argument for that simple equivalent, you can demonstrate what kind of evidence you would expect for a similar claim from FDR.

Is there some reason why you won't participate in the intellectual process?
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Why do you continue to refuse to address this point. You are being asked what type of evidence you would accept.

You also complained about someone saying there is no docuementation stating that FDR did not have foreknowledge and you laughed about non-existant docuementation. Yet you also have complained that we draw our conclusions based on incomplete docuementation. Would that include the non-existant docements that FDR did have precise foreknowledge of the attack? Are you basing your conclusion on this non-existant docuement?

Furhermore you stated that we are saying that FDR did not have any suspicion or expectation at all that the Japanese were going to attack yet you know already that the docuements provided illustrate quite succinctly that the USA gov't was concerned that this would indeed happen. Why do you CHOOSE to misrepresent the arguement so badly?
 
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