Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[nadsat]

Tyvm

 

[leftysergeant]

*And for all of Geraldo's talk of "hoodies" and instant mental associations with gangs, I can't remember a single part of the Stranger Danger speech that involved making the person following you feel like you're no threat.

I'm a little old, so my experience of "Stranger Danger" training is second hand, through my sone, but I was under the impression that the response is supposed to be to raise a ruckus and attract attention, and, if touched, do as much harm as possible, biting, scratching, grabbing the danglies and twisting and anything else that would make it difficult for a perv to discretely stuff you into his vehicle and head off to his chosen trysting place.

I expect Neighborhood Watch programs to have some kind of clue about that sort of thing and thus would expect that punk Z to know that Martin was doing exactly what he was supposed to do when some perv chases him or confronts him, which means that anybody but an absolute drooling moron in that position would be identifying himself and staying out of arm's reach.

 

[leftysergeant]

The long version is here.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.

To paraphrase, when a claim of justification is made, the state is prevented from arresting or even detaining in custody [sub (1)] the suspect. The state is allowed to open a homicide investigation but may not make arrest without probable cause that the use of force was unlawful [sub (2)].

Why did that moron not open at least a preliminary investigation? A totally innocent kid was dead because some swine was doing exactly what the cops told him he should not do, and for no good reason other than that he is a racist scumbag who thinks he's tough.

That's correct. The State Attorney decided that the state did not have probable cuase to act on the police recomendation of manslaughter charges - at least as I understand the reasoning.

Did the moron have any clue yet who Martin was?

If not, the SA should STAY gone, not just from this case, but from the justice system.

 

[leftysergeant]

The State of Florida is following the law as it is written. Zimmerman has immunity from detention or arrest until the state finds probable cause that the shooting was not justified.

What about ther fact that the pervert was chasing and frighterning a kid who was doing nothing wrong? Where is his grounds to think he is threatened, other than the fact that the kid did exactly what the law allows him to do to the thug?

The original State Attorney held this view and the special prosecutor that has had jurisdiction for a week now has thus far failed to execute an arrest warrant.

The original prosecuter is a dimwit and his replacement is convening a grand jury, like a rational human being would do.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

You are not being objective here. You can do better.

"Physician heal thyself."

 

[Cylinder]

What about ther fact that the pervert was chasing and frighterning a kid who was doing nothing wrong? Where is his grounds to think he is threatened, other than the fact that the kid did exactly what the law allows him to do to the thug?

From the state's point-of-view, the correct question to ask is where is the evidence that Zimmerman's claim is false or unlawful.

 

[leftysergeant]

Really?

Yeah, really.

Because Lefty's claim that an obviously Hispanic man in a nice jacket and shirt with short hairshaved head, chasing him for no damned reason and demanding to know what he was doing there, like it was any of his damned business 'looks like a banger'(#3396), and there is a '90% chance' they'll kill you (#3645), would seem 'absurd' to me.

Role play this in your head. (You should have that sort of skills if you are going to play investigator like this.)

You are minding your own business and notice some dork following you for no good reason. You take off running. After running a certain distance, you think you have lost him, but WHUMP there he is again, clearly meaning to see that you don't lose him again. Are you going to compliment him on his nice threads or are you going to demand to know what his major malfunction is? I don't think I would be the least bit impressed that he was dressed nicely. Ted Bundy dressed nicely. (I actually once met that turd. He creeped me out a little bit, even before he is known to have started killing women.)

Gangs are often made up of a single ethnic group. A lot of them shave their heads because it is one less way for an opponent to hurt them when they go mano-a-mano.

Now, what is it about Z that should not have been threatening?

When Z demanded to know what Martin was doing there, but did not identify himself as part of Neighborhood Watch, don't you think it would look more like you were facing a banger staking out his turf?

Have you any idea how bangers act when thery meet someone who might be a rival gang member? I have seen it going down, and it is pretty scarey. "What are you doing here?" is a very common greeting between them, just before the compost hits the ventilating device.

Are you with me so far? Are you looking at this from the perspective of Martin's probable life experiences?

Can you see why Martin might feel that punching this fool's lights out might be the only way to get out of that situation?

Okay, so now you have the pervert or banger or whatever this fool is on the ground, knocked a little goofy from hitting his head on the edge of the sidewalk and you notice that he has a gun. Are you going to feel safe going on about your business without taking that gun away from him? What do you expect him to do when he gets up? Do you even want him to get up at all? Do you want him to still have the gun when he gets up? I sure as hell wouldn't. I would feel pretty certain that if I walk away and leave that pile of crap sitting there, in pain and a bit humiliated and armed that I would probably not make it to the end of the next town house without catching a bullet in the back.

Can you see any line of thought that might pass through Martin's head that would make it a good idea NOT to take that wierdo's weapon?

 

[leftysergeant]

From the state's point-of-view, the correct question to ask is where is the evidence that Zimmerman's claim is false or unlawful.

That he killed someone whom he was pursuing for no damned reason.

 

[Dragoonster]

The difference is, when the rest of the evidence comes out, will that opinion be based on facts, and if not, will that opinion change?

Sure would've helped if the police had actually gathered evidence from the scene and from the killer. Apparently all the evidence we have now and will ever have is from third-parties (and remote video cameras; and from a person who spoke on the phone to the victim up to his death but has never been interviewed by police).

"Evidence" seems pretty damned subjective and haphazardly gained/ignored in this particular case.

 

[Noztradamus]

Yeah, really.

Because Lefty's claim that an obviously Hispanic man in a nice jacket and shirt with short hairshaved head, chasing him for no damned reason and demanding to know what he was doing there, like it was any of his damned business 'looks like a banger'(#3396), and there is a '90% chance' they'll kill you (#3645), would seem 'absurd' to me.

Role play this in your head. (You should have that sort of skills if you are going to play investigator like this.)

"I could do that"

You are minding your own business and notice some dork following you for no good reason. You take off running. After running a certain distance, you think you have lost him, but WHUMP there he is again, clearly meaning to see that you don't lose him again. Are you going to compliment him on his nice threads or are you going to demand to know what his major malfunction is? I don't think I would be the least bit impressed that he was dressed nicely. Ted Bundy dressed nicely. (I actually once met that turd. He creeped me out a little bit, even before he is known to have started killing women.)

Gangs are often made up of a single ethnic group. A lot of them shave their heads because it is one less way for an opponent to hurt them when they go mano-a-mano.

Now, what is it about Z that should not have been threatening?

"Gi us a go" Needs dialogue

TM: Why are you following me?

GZ: What are you doing in this neighborhood?

TM: Do you have a problem with that?

GZ: No. I don't have a problem. You are facing 9mm of hurt.

Can you see why Martin might feel that punching this fool's lights out might be the only way to get out of that situation?

Okay, so now you have the pervert or banger or whatever this fool is on the ground, knocked a little goofy from hitting his head on the edge of the sidewalk and you notice that he has a gun. Are you going to feel safe going on about your business without taking that gun away from him? What do you expect him to do when he gets up? Do you even want him to get up at all? Do you want him to still have the gun when he gets up? I sure as hell wouldn't. I would feel pretty certain that if I walk away and leave that pile of crap sitting there, in pain and a bit humiliated and armed that I would probably not make it to the end of the next town house without catching a bullet in the back.

Can you see any line of thought that might pass through Martin's head that would make it a good idea NOT to take that wierdo's weapon?

Most dialogue supplied by George and Robert Zimmerman

 

[This is The End]

He didn't have a lawyer at that point. He didn't get a lawyer until much later, at least a week or two.

Isn't Z's father a lawyer, or at least involved with and familiar with law? He could have been the one counseling him at that point.

 

[This is The End]

That one, that's the one that gets me. Martin was 17, not too far away from parental lectures about people who follow you in a car, or get out to stalk you.

I'm not responding to that quote in particular, but there have been many "following" someone analogies in the past few pages that act like Z was following M in a crowded area.

If I'm following you in a mall with hundreds of people around it could just be a coincidence.

On the other hand if we are the only two people in a huge outside area and I did not see you do anything wrong, then that can be seen as confrontational.

 

[This is The End]

Have there been links to, or can anyone find, a case in Florida where: Someone who was following someone else, with no one else around, and then ended up killing the someone else, got off on self defense with no trial? Whether or not a fight is involved, I'm just wondering about similar cases.

What about in other states?

(This is a hypothetical, since Z has not gotten off on self defense with no trial yet.)

 

[Dancing David]

Pardon me if this has already been discussed, but in Australia if Zimmerman was the victim of a simple mugging his injuries (if any) would still have been photographed for evidence purposes. It seems logical that in a case involving a dead body that the police would have asked for such photographs. Do procedures differ in the USA, or should such photographs exist if Zimmerman really was injured and really did want to document it to cover himself legally?

It should be SOP, but who knows. At this point it is all locked up, once the grand jury meets , some may become public.

 

[Dancing David]

Sure would've helped if the police had actually gathered evidence from the scene and from the killer. Apparently all the evidence we have now and will ever have is from third-parties (and remote video cameras; and from a person who spoke on the phone to the victim up to his death but has never been interviewed by police).

"Evidence" seems pretty damned subjective and haphazardly gained/ignored in this particular case.

From what is known the police did gather evidence, then the lead investigator asked for charges to be pressed. For some reason those were not. We do not know all the evidence that was gathered, nor the exact reason that the SA's office chose to not press charges.

Then an alleged witness made some outrageous claims, then the media made some claims, then a whole bunch of people got upset. Then the 911 calls were released. Then a lawyer got involved, etc...

My personal interest is that I have a 17 year old son.

 

[LTC8K6]

Thought this might need to be posted.

FLORIDA
STANDARD JURY INSTRUCTIONS
IN CRIMINAL CASES

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/...ers/entireversion/onlinejurryinstructions.pdf

3.6(f) JUSTIFIABLE USE OF DEADLY FORCE page 62.

 

[Cylinder]

Thought this might need to be posted.

FLORIDA
STANDARD JURY INSTRUCTIONS
IN CRIMINAL CASES

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/...ers/entireversion/onlinejurryinstructions.pdf

3.6(f) JUSTIFIABLE USE OF DEADLY FORCE page 62.

Nice find. Thanks.

 

[Information Analyst]

What would matter is why he initially was suspicious. If he wasn't initially sure the subject was black, then it's unlikely that he initially targeted him for his race.

Sure, but it might reinforce his suspicion subsequently.

 

[Information Analyst]

I applaud your restraint. I saw it too in the original video, but I held off on saying so.

The back of his head appears to be split open.

In which case there would be very obvious matching scarring subsequently.

 

[SomedayGirl]

It occurred to me to wonder...we've focused alot on Zimmerman's blood, or lack thereof, in the surveillance video. But if events happened as Zimmerman and his father describe (very close range shooting, Martin had Zimmerman pinned and was was hitting him when the shot was fired into Martin's chest) shouldn't Martin's blood be on the front of Zimmerman's shirt?

I'm not a fan of those CSI shows so I have no expertise to call on.