Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[RandFan]

Did they made up his injuries in the police report?

Perhaps. It wouldn't be the first time. My guess is that he had a bit of blood on him from the tussle and they made more of it than it was. Hell, the blood might not even have been his.

 

[nadsat]

since when did bleeding as reported becomes bleeding "profusely"? And you know they have ointments and cream that you can rub on to stop hemorrhages right?

 

[Information Analyst]

The shooter did stupid things, and the victim did stupid things.

So what "stupid things" do we actually know Martin did?

 

[johnny karate]

so you'd be able to determine that's the same Zimmerman in the pictures that's been floating around even if you were not told before hand that's him?

A bit of unfair question considering the significant weight loss.

Is it possible that he was cleaned up by EMTs at the scene? Is it possible that there are no bandages because he has a buzzed haircut and it would be kind of pointless to bandage up his hair?

I honestly have no idea what you mean in that last sentence. A scalp laceration would bleed profusely. I'm not sure what kind of miracle an EMT could perform to make a bloody gash seem almost non-existent just a short time later, and without the need for any kind of wound dressing.

You dream can up whatever "possibilities" you like, but the simple fact of the matter is that the man in the video does not look like someone who suffered the injuries Zimmerman claims to have suffered.

What's becoming ridiculous is the way the burden of proof has been shifted. Now it seems as if Zimmerman's claim of self-defense is taken as fact, and it's up to those who disagree to prove otherwise.

 

[johnny karate]

since when did bleeding as reported becomes bleeding "profusely"? And you know they have ointments and cream that you can rub on to stop hemorrhages right?

I'll tell you what, why don't you provide a link to a medically-approved EMT treatment for scalp lacerations that would account for the virtual non-existence of the injury as seen in the video?

It'll save us all the trouble of playing the "What If?" Game: Medical Miracle Edition.

 

[nadsat]

A bit of unfair question considering the significant weight loss.



I honestly have no idea what you mean in that last sentence. A scalp laceration would bleed profusely. I'm not sure what kind of miracle an EMT could perform to make a bloody gash seem almost non-existent just a short time later, and without the need for any kind of wound dressing.

You dream can up whatever "possibilities" you like, but the simple fact of the matter is that the man in the video does not look like someone who suffered the injuries Zimmerman claims to have suffered.

What's becoming ridiculous is the way the burden of proof has been shifted. Now it seems as if Zimmerman's claim of self-defense is taken as fact, and it's up to those who disagree to prove otherwise.

Well the burden of proof has always been the responsibility of the prosecution according to the American justice system. Also, please provide evidence for the bolded claim.

Even if Zim was "bleeding profusely", i'd imagine the EMT's would treat him like how a boxing cutman would a fighter:

Cuts (lacerations) are the primary focus of the cutman because unless the bleeding is stopped promptly, the ring side physician may stop the fight and declare that the injured fighter has lost the match. Physicians also will stop a match for a laceration that is perpendicular to the eye. The most common area of the face to be cut is around the eye. Cuts are treated by applying a cold towel to clean and simultaneously cool the area of the cut, causing a decrease in blood flow. A cotton swab soaked in epinephrine is applied with pressure to decrease blood flow even more, and Avitene is put into the cut to coagulate the blood.[1] A cutman might also cover the area with petroleum jelly to prevent further damage.

 

[leftysergeant]

Note that the 'exhausted every reasonable means' requirement *might* only take place in a fraction of a second... in the case of Zimmerman's claim, yelling 'Help!' while on his back could be asserted to fit that section, and when he thought that Martin was going to take his gun, he jerked it away and fired.

Still going to be a hard sell I suspect...

Consider that Martin, because he realized that the wierd SOB following him was packing and had no right to be interfering with him and, thus, was probably up to something nefarious, had every right in the world to take that gun, perhaps even to shoot the wierdo if he tried to get it back.

Z had no right to have that gun at that time, in that place. His ass wasn't even supposed to be there.

 

[nadsat]

I'll tell you what, why don't you provide a link to a medically-approved EMT treatment for scalp lacerations that would account for the virtual non-existence of the injury as seen in the video?

bolding mine

why did the cop look at the back of his head at :50?

 

[leftysergeant]

since when did bleeding as reported becomes bleeding "profusely"? And you know they have ointments and cream that you can rub on to stop hemorrhages right?

Horse feathers. Show me the dressing. There would be a dressing.

Further, if that fat punk's nose got broken in that fight, how has it already stopped bleeding so that he can walk around with no compress on his nose like that?

 

[leftysergeant]

Well the burden of proof has always been the responsibility of the prosecution according to the American justice system. Also, please provide evidence for the bolded claim.

Even if Zim was "bleeding profusely", i'd imagine the EMT's would treat him like how a boxing cutman would a fighter:

As a veteran fire fighter and the victim of more than a few cooking and bicycling accidents and close encounters with concertina wire, my first response would be

 

[johnny karate]

Well the burden of proof has always been the responsibility of the prosecution according to the American justice system.

Not in the case of an affirmative defense:

Because an affirmative defense requires an assertion of facts beyond those claimed by the plaintiff, generally the party who offers an affirmative defense bears the burden of proof.[6] The standard of proof is typically lower than beyond a reasonable doubt. It can either be proved by clear and convincing evidence or by a preponderance of the evidence. In some cases or jurisdictions, however, the defense must only be asserted, and the prosecution has the burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defense is not applicable.[citation needed]

The last sentence indicates there are exceptions, but there is no citation, nor do we know if this case would qualify.

However, this is all irrelevant as we are not in a court of law. The standard rules of rational discourse apply. Those making the claim (i.e. Zimmerman acted in self-defense) have the burden of proof.

Also, please provide evidence for the bolded claim.

Gladly.

Even if Zim was "bleeding profusely", i'd imagine the EMT's would treat him like how a boxing cutman would a fighter:

Ha ha... what? If you're going to imagine things, why not just imagine the EMTs would treat him with pixie dust or the Force.

 

[nadsat]

would we be able to see this in the CCTV footage?

http://www.saintelizabethonline.com/downloads/healthimages/laceration_scalp1.jpg

or this?

http://www.ecommunity.com/firstaid/healthimages/lacerationscalp_child.jpg

 

[leftysergeant]

Is it possible that he was cleaned up by EMTs at the scene? Is it possible that there are no bandages because he has a buzzed haircut and it would be kind of pointless to bandage up his hair?

Yes, they would put a dressing on it. Buzzed hair is actually a good thing in that regard. Less chance of embedding a source of infection into the cut. Several times, when I have has to have wounds dressed, the medics shaved the area around the wound before applying the dressing.

You appear not to have a clue about these matters, and would probably be better off not addressing them.

 

[johnny karate]

bolding mine

why did the cop look at the back of his head at :50?

I'm guessing because he couldn't figure out where Zimmerman's injuries were either.

 

[johnny karate]

would we be able to see this in the CCTV footage?

http://www.saintelizabethonline.com/downloads/healthimages/laceration_scalp1.jpg

or this?

http://www.ecommunity.com/firstaid/healthimages/lacerationscalp_child.jpg

Now all you have to do is tell us how old these injuries are.

 

[leftysergeant]

That is so far from the reality, or even common sense, as to invite ridicule.

Provoked the fight by following? By questioning? Even by shoving or grabbing?

And that forfeits any right to defend one's self no matter what danger emerges from the confrontation?

Yes, because the stupid sack of fail had no right to say BOO to Martin. He looks like a gangbanger and he was interdicting Martin's way home. Martin had every right to smash him into the ground to get him out of his way at that point.

When you are approached by some random pervert in the neighborhood at night, is it a good idea to tell the sleazeball where you live?

Get real. Martin had no reason to think that Z deserved anything other than busted teeth.

 

[nadsat]

Gladly.

a more relevant google search would be "scalp lacerations will always bleed profusely" as you insinuated.

Ha ha... what? If you're going to imagine things, why not just imagine the EMTs would treat him with pixie dust or the Force.

It's not hard to imagine 2 different medical physicians using the same technique to treat the same type of injuries. I admitted I was guessing and I admit I'm not a medical expert. Hopefully someone who is will chime in.

It's just really funny to see you guys using so much logical fallacies to rationalize away. I probably used some. Gonna wait for new reports before I come back to the playground. You guys win.

 

[leftysergeant]

I am sorry, I don't know what DAO means.

In the "Safe" condition, the hammer is uncocked, usually resting on a bar that prevents its striking the primer of a chambered cartidge, and the trigger cannot be pulled. When the safety lever is moved to the "Fire" position, the trigger may be pulled. As the trigger is pulled, the hammer is cocked, the hammer bar drops out of the way and, once the trigger has travelled a set distance, the hammer is released to strike the primer, firing the chambered cartridge. Upon firing the cartridge, depending on whether the weapon is a straight blow-back or delayed blow-back design, the slide only (straight blow-back) travels to the rear, extracting and ejecting the fired cartridge, then returning forward to strip another round from the magazine and inserting it
into the chamber, or the barrel and slide together move reward until by some mechanism they are disconnected, allowing the slide to complete the extraction and reloading cycle (delayed blow-back.) In a DA/SA weapon, this also cocks the hammer, reducing the amount of trigger pressure needed to fire the weapon. Because so much positive pressure must be applied to the trigger to fire them DAO weapons are a good choice if the weapon is to be stowed as close to the family jewels as your typical waistband holster.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Just on the claims that a broken nose would be obvious on a video - not necessarily. My son bashed his nose pretty hard when sledging a couple of years ago, when he crashed into his cousin. He didn't break it, but a day later it was really swollen on one side and he had a black eye. Just after the accident there was not much sign of it at all. It sometimes takes some time before the swelling and particularly the bruising, become evident.

 

[johnny karate]

a more relevant google search would be "scalp lacerations will always bleed profusely" as you insinuated.

Yeah, okay. Just make sure you lift with your legs when sliding those goal posts around. I'd hate for you to throw your back out.

It's not hard to imagine 2 different medical physicians using the same technique to treat the same type of injuries. I admitted I was guessing and I admit I'm not a medical expert. Hopefully someone who is will chime in.

So what your left with is the highly unlikely scenario in which someone had a scalp wound that didn't bleed as much as one normally would to the point of not requiring any kind of dressing who was treated by an EMT who, for some reason, decided to use the technique of a ringside cut man to tend the wound.

All just to maintain Zimmerman's narrative.

I think an application of Occam's Razor might be in order.

It's just really funny to see you guys using so much logical fallacies to rationalize away. I probably used some. Gonna wait for new reports before I come back to the playground. You guys win.

Feel free to point those logical fallacies out anytime.