Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[triforcharity]

OK let's back this up. Warning: This is a hypothetical. I am not saying that Z started the fight in reality.

In Florida, if you start a fight are there legal ways that you can end the fight in a self defense shooting?

In other words. You start a fight. You realize at some point you are losing the fight. Or perhaps the fight starts being more serious than you intended. You shoot the other person and they die. Is it at all possible that is a legal self defense in Florida?

Actually, yes, there is ONE way.

You would have to break the fight off, by either backing away, or attempting to leave, or some other form of "I give up" so to speak.

In Florida, the SYG law would not apply, since the law specifically states that you must not be committing a crime during or before the incident.

776.013 (3)
"(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

Which eliminates this protection under Florida law.

Here's the law on breaking off the fight.

776.041 :
Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


You can read the entire chapter here.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html

Conclusion: No, unless they broke off the fight in some way.

Hope this helps.

 

[LTC8K6]

The video was probably from a FOI request, it really has no evidentiary value.

Not so much the video, but the headlines claiming it shows an uninjured Zimmerman.

 

[johnny karate]

What's the license plate number?

So unless you can make out the license plate number there is no way to tell if Zimmerman is bloodied or has a bandage?

Solid reasoning.

 

[Checkmite]

Come on, Wildcat; the license plate is in shadow and partially obscured by the bumper. Meanwhile, you can easily read the SANFORD POLICE lettering and the 591 on the left end of the bumper, even though the text is physically shorter than the text on the plate. Why? Because they're closer to the camera and more brightly lit. You know, like Zimmerman's head.

 

[Piggy]

You've been denyng that the 'justifiable use of deadly force while in fear for your life' laws apply from the get-go, and claiming that instead that another set of laws that only the media calls 'Stand Your Ground', applies instead.

It has been explained numerous times what the difference is, and why those laws do, and SYG does not, apply in this case.

That makes your claims that I agree with you, along with your repeated refusal to even look at the other statutes, disingenuous in the extreme.. .clearly this is some sort of fantasy game for you, and I refuse to play.

The problem with this view is that it relies on limiting the scope to a narrow time frame which I don't think will be exclusively under consideration at trial.

Like I said, even if we assume that Martin initiated the fist fight and was getting the better of Zimmerman, we have to consider the impact of Florida's SYG law (and I don't mind the term here) versus so-called "retreat" laws which would have forbidden him from exiting the truck and pursuing Martin in the first place if he indeed found him suspicious, so it's going to get dragged in that way.

And I would be very surprised if the prosecution didn't assert a SYG right on the part of Martin, which might earn a manslaughter conviction even if a murder charge cannot be successfully brought,and even if Zimmerman were determined to be acting out of fear of bodily harm at the moment of the shooting.

That's why I say that this case will likely be decided on issues that aren't being covered... SYG will be involved, but not in the way you might think at first glance.

 

[crimresearch]

Actually, yes, there is ONE way.

You would have to break the fight off, by either backing away, or attempting to leave, or some other form of "I give up" so to speak.

In Florida, the SYG law would not apply, since the law specifically states that you must not be committing a crime during or before the incident.

You can read the entire chapter here.


Conclusion: No, unless they broke off the fight in some way.

Hope this helps.

Yep, that's very much the difference between SYG and the 'fear for your life' sections.

Note that the 'exhausted every reasonable means' requirement *might* only take place in a fraction of a second... in the case of Zimmerman's claim, yelling 'Help!' while on his back could be asserted to fit that section, and when he thought that Martin was going to take his gun, he jerked it away and fired.

Still going to be a hard sell I suspect...

 

[varwoche]

Pardon my carlessness here:

"Zimmerman told police he had killed him. Shot him in the back of the head in self-defense."

Well, that's it then. In the back of the head. That couldn't be self defense.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...e-convenience-store+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

... That's a quote from Jessie Jackson -- far too indirect of a source to be informative.

Jackson didn't say that. Doh.

 

[LTC8K6]

Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of 'you're going to die now,' or 'you're going to die tonight.' Or something to that effect.

Is this a new claim? I have not seen it before.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/ne...ill-zimmerman-zimmermans-father-says-03282012

 

[LTC8K6]

Pardon my carlessness here:

Jackson didn't say that. Doh.

The article is incorrect, then?

 

[crimresearch]

Pardon my carlessness here:

Jackson didn't say that. Doh.

He didn't?


"But Jackson told the crowd at the church, "Zimmerman told police he had killed him. Shot him in the back of the head in self-defense.""

 

[triforcharity]

Is this a new claim? I have not seen it before.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/ne...ill-zimmerman-zimmermans-father-says-03282012

Not really, someone else claimed the same, IIRC, it was on an internet forum.

Here's the part that pisses me off to no end.

"
When the interviewer asked about Martin’s girlfriend, who said that he told her that he was being followed, Robert Zimmerman said he didn’t believe her.

He replied: “I don't believe she was on the phone with him, and I find it very strange with the publicity involved with this that all of the sudden, after three weeks, someone would remember that they were on the phone. I believe the FBI and others investigating this will find that that did not happen.”

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...says-travyon-told-his-son-youre-gonna-die-now

Here's the biggest problem with that.

The Sanford Police have already confirmed it to be true.

 

[Noztradamus]

Is this a new claim? I have not seen it before.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/ne...ill-zimmerman-zimmermans-father-says-03282012

Old claim. Been out there a week. Originally from a friend of a relation of Zimmerman - or a relation of a friend (don't care enough to check which) as

"you're gunna die tonight, person who has sexual congress with their female parent"

It has not been confirmed that after he was shot, he said "Arg, ya got me"

I lied check http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-case-special-prosecutor-appointed-protests-grow-192403360.html comment by 'Blake'

 

[johnny karate]

From the poll thread:

As opposed to flushing it with saline and wiping on an antiseptic gelpak?
Yeah, you must be right, minor abrasions would clearly be visible in that camera shot after that.

Now it's "minor abrasions"? What happened to the scalp lacerations?

 

[LTC8K6]

Old claim. Been out there a week. Originally from a friend of a relation of Zimmerman - or a relation of a friend (don't care enough to check which) as

"you're gunna die tonight, person who has sexual congress with their female parent"

It has not been confirmed that after he was shot, he said "Arg, ya got me"

I lied check http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-case-special-prosecutor-appointed-protests-grow-192403360.html comment by 'Blake'

I don't see it in that article, if you were serious.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

It has not been confirmed that after he was shot, he said "Arg, ya got me"

Is he supposed to have been channeling the spirit of David Kenyon Webster?

 

[Noztradamus]

I don't see it in that article, if you were serious.

No I wasn't, but if they continue to mine bad movie dialogue, it'll turn up sometime. (w.ref "Yah got me", i've seen the "die tonight ******" at an number of places)

 

[Checkmite]

No I wasn't, but if they continue to mine bad movie dialogue, it'll turn up sometime. (w.ref "Yah got me", i've seen the "die tonight ******" at an number of places)

I heard it was "you're entering a world of pain", but I admit the source was slightly unreliable.

 

[nadsat]

You can clearly distinguish the man's facial features, the distinctive shape of his nose, his eyebrows, his hairline.

Again, police use even lower resolution surveillance footage routinely as evidence. Or have you never seen a news report about a bank robbery or convenience store hold up? They not happen where you live?

so you'd be able to determine that's the same Zimmerman in the pictures that's been floating around even if you were not told before hand that's him?

You are being disingenuous. Zimmerman supposedly had a broken nose and scalp lacerations. That video shows no evidence of that. No blood. No bandages. Nothing that would indicate he was injured as badly as he claimed.

Is it possible that he was cleaned up by EMTs at the scene? Is it possible that there are no bandages because he has a buzzed haircut and it would be kind of pointless to bandage up his hair?

 

[nadsat]

Did they made up his injuries in the police report?

 

[RandFan]

Is it possible that he was cleaned up by EMTs at the scene? Is it possible that there are no bandages because he has a buzzed haircut and it would be kind of pointless to bandage up his hair?

So people who are bleeding profusely on their buzzed cut head are simply left to bleed? Seriously? Look, he could have some superficial cuts. I honestly don't know. What I do know is that what he looks like doesn't match the description of his injuries. At all.